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Breeds referred to as species.

Discussion in 'Comments, Complaints or Suggestions' started by CollachLoon, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. CollachLoon

    CollachLoon Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Location:
    Scotland
    I think this is great website and forum with a wealth of goldfish knowledge but I did notice a gross misnomer in the article under Basic goldfish care, titled Fancy goldfish:

    "While they do share some characteristics, there are actually many different species of fancy goldfish"

    All fancy goldfish belong to the same species. There are of course different breeds of goldfish.

    Maybe this could be corrected to avoid confusion.

    Cheers.
     
  2. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    Thanks for correction. Will fix.
     
  3. Hinfin

    Hinfin Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Location:
    Holland
    I had just noticed i used the word varieties often, but this seems to apply more to plants, breeds should be correct. Allthough varieties within a breed of a species seems to be correct too....

    Anyway, i think it doesnt matter that much, but it is good to know how the correct nomenclature is.
     
  4. Sakura

    Sakura Butterfly Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Location:
    USA
    Variety vs. Breed

    Actually the term "variety" is more correct than "breed" for goldfish types. This is because "breed" implies that the fish breed true, like a purebred dog; when in fact, they largely do not. Here is an excerpt from "Goldfish Breeding and Genetics" by Smartt.

    "The use of the term 'variety' as applied to the goldfish needs some explanation. It was the term favored by the late and great William T. Innes and was chosen by him with great care and very judiciously. The term 'breed', which also has been used, although very appropriate for cattle, sheep, horses, dogs, and cats, is less appropriate for goldfish because it implies a fixity that just does not occur in many, if not all, of the most highly evolved goldfish varieties... The real problem that the goldfish breeder faces is that the great majority of progeny produced, even by first-class brood stock of highly evolved varieties, not only may not conform to the variety specification of their parents but also not conform to that of any other recognized variety. This is a different problem to that faced by a breeder of Siamese cats, who may never produce a champion but all his animals are recognizably Siamese..." (p 35-36).
     
    CollachLoon likes this.
  5. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    I'm confused ... Ryukin to Ryukin gives you Ryukin, no? Ranchu to Ranchu = Ranchu? Maybe not all good Ranchu, but certainly all dorsal-less, fantailed, roundy bodied fish with headgrowth? This is assuming there have been many generations, as in a purebred dog, of no outcrosses to other "breeds".

    Are there significant numbers of fry, say, in a Ranchu to Ranchu breeding that do not look at all like a Ranchu, which would indicate that they are not breeding true?
     
  6. LadysSolo

    LadysSolo Breeder/keeper

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Ranchu to ranchu can sometimes give fish with a dorsal spike, I have never seen a dorsal fin but would not rule it out. Ryukin to ryukin should give ryukin, but culls are sometimes sold as fantails (ones that do not grow a good hump.) My bristols in the past have thrown a doubletail, but (per variety article from about two years ago) that is from Moors having been crossed in long ago to add black, and occasionally comes out (none last year, though.) Occasionally you will get a surprise......
     
  7. opera

    opera accidental breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Location:
    TX
    Not sure about other ranchu... but tvr is breed true.. no dosal fin....
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  8. Hinfin

    Hinfin Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Location:
    Holland
    For example, a TVR from master Oishi, would this be a variety of goldfish(breed) or a very specific selection(variety)? We seem to consistently include the term ranchu allready for all the ranchu derived varieties.

    Would it be usefull to refer to offspring of these TVR as ranchu? Can one call all offspring Oishi TVR?

    The mere fact we are culling to a specific standard or set of trait proves these varieties do not breed true and i have to agree with the suggestion stated by sakura.

    A breed would suggest a 100% genetic makeup for this standard. Varieties suggests a selection of specific traits.

    Often the single tail ryukins are sold as sabao or tamasaba depending on color, but their genetic makeup is not pure to a breed, just to a specific set of traits.
     
  9. CollachLoon

    CollachLoon Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Location:
    Scotland
    Thanks Sakura, that's an enlightening post
     

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