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Goldfish Culling - Ryukin

Discussion in 'Breeding' started by small_ranchu, May 13, 2012.

  1. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    Goldfish Culling - Ryukin By Don(NYGold)

    Hello fine members of GFK I was asked to put together a little something on culling Ryukin. I’m no expert so bare with me. I have some pictures because I think it’s easier to explain than with words.

    Most people my self included like to have big spawns with lots of fry but after having a HUGE spawn I think I would rather have spawns on the smaller side like 200 or less. Having spawns of over 1000 fry at a time can be a real pain if you don’t have the room. Here is a picture of what a spawn of close to 3000 looks like.

    [​IMG]

    As you can see it’s very crowded and without the proper space and food these little fry will be off to a bad start. I posted this picture before and Gary told me they didn’t have enough space, I gave him some BS excuse about there being enough space but Gary was right (Sorry Gary).

    These little guys are about 2 weeks old but you can actually cull some even sooner. Here is an over head shot of a few fry at 6 days old. At this stage from the top you can see crooked spines. I didn’t have a picture of a fish with a crooked spine so I drew one I hope you get the idea.

    [​IMG]

    Twisted spines are probably one of the first things you can cull out aside from 3 eyes and 2 heads and stuff like that I would probably keep those any way. A 2 headed fish is probably worth a million bucks.

    As the fry get about 2 to 3 weeks old they start looking more like fish than alien bugs.You’ll find some with little spikes instead of dorsal fins, some that are banana shaped and some that have a butterfly like tail. I’m looking for a Ryukin that has a nice full tail that goes straight up and down after it leaves the peduncle. Here is a picture of a fry with a tail that I would cull.

    [​IMG]

    These pictures are both the same do you see how the top part of the tail and the back are on the same plane? When this fish is all grown the tail is going to droop off its butt, throwing of the balance and the swimming motion of the fish.

    [​IMG]

    The above picture is more of what I’m after. See how the tail shoots up at a nice angle after leaving the body? While this fry isn’t perfect it is much better than the one in the previous picture.This tail issue alone will cut the number of your fry down well over 50%.

    As the fry get older it gets easier to cull basically because you can actually see the damn things.At 6 to 8 weeks you can start looking a bit closer at the fry like particularly the peduncle area.It’s a bit hard for me to explain the peduncle gets shafty looking .
     
  2. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    [​IMG]

    See how the peduncle is long (the space between the body and the tail)?

    This throws the balanced look of the Ryukin way off at the same time it exposes the anal fins so they can be seen from the side. Not a HUGE fault but something you try not to have. You also have to remember the tail will fill out and sometimes cover some or all of the anal fin as the fish grows.The tail will fill out but that long shafty peduncle will never shrink.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a picture of one that’s a little better than the last fish . While about half of the anal fin is exposed the peduncle doesn’t have that long shafty look to it. The body has a nice balanced diamond shape to it, the tail comes up off the body at a nice angle and it has a beautiful dorsal fin.The dorsal comes up nice and high and has a smooth curve (not serpentine) and just disappears in to the body. This guy is also showing the slightest little start of a hump.

    [​IMG]

    This is what I mean by the diamond shape. It has nice balance and proportions and has a nice chunky Ryukin look to it. Yeah yeah yeah I see the anal fin too but I would keep this fish around and hope when it gets older the tail will fill out and cover at least half of that anal fin.

    [​IMG]

    Lastly at about 3 or 4 months they aren’t fry anymore now if everything works out you have a Ryukin.This guy has a nice pointed head and the beginning of a nice BIG hump. The top of the tail really comes off the body at a nice angle and the anal fin is out of sight. This fish I would NOT cull.This is what I’m looking for this is a KEEPER.

    Well that concludes my little culling article I hope it makes sense.

    Before I go I would just like to say don’t get to hung up on the little nit picky stuff if your looking to breed the PERFECT Ryukin your going to be very disappointed.

    If you get a fish that’s a 7 or an 8 on a 1-10 scale your doing pretty good.

    Us Ryukin lovers have to get our act together right now I think it’s easier to get a good TVR in this country than it is to get a good Ryukin.

    Don(NYgold)
     
  3. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    culling article

    Good use of pictures to make your point. Good job.
     
  4. OrandaLover1028

    OrandaLover1028 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Location:
    South Bend,In
    TY! The article is really great & the pictures are soooo helpful!
     
  5. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Where we're you 10 years ago

    I think this is very helpful, thanks for your time
     
  6. JoseRodriguez

    JoseRodriguez Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    This is excellent! Wish we could do this with all the varieties!
     
  7. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    culling article

    Jose we are doing this with almost all the varieties. Look at the list on the culling thread!
     
  8. Romewhip

    Romewhip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Location:
    Western WA
    Wow, great job Don! The pictures make it so very clear. I agree with looking for a diamond shape fish- keeping that tail to body connection short. I also prefer a clearly pointed head- no parrot mouth, no blunt face, clean profile with no wen.

    One of the things I like best about your keeper fish is the balance of body. Top of the circle being the hump and bottom being the belly I like to see these about the same on a 4 months old fish. I don't like to see the belly become so huge as to make the fish much more oval, and sometimes this is grooming and sometimes it is genetics. Some like the bigger belly and very extreme hump, especially in the short tails, my personal preference is a deep round fish, like your example.

    Thank you!
     
  9. Phil4

    Phil4 phil4

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Location:
    Queens NY
    Great job Don. Thanks
     
  10. Ranchufan16

    Ranchufan16 Ryukin & Veil Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Location:
    northwestern Ohio
    Thanks for this Don! Very informative, now to get some really really good breeding stock in the usa! I know u have some...who else?
     
  11. nygold

    nygold Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    Ian right now Lisa (OrandaLover1028) has one of the best if not the best Ryukin I know of in the U.S. right now.
    I think she's closer to you, you have to get her to breed that sucker.

    Lisa if your listening, do you know the sex of that Ryukin yet?
     
  12. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    Look at the vid from the show, it was easy the best fish there...

    Greg Hack(Ranchu fancier) had a nice family of Ryukins going, but I have not heard from him in awhile....

    Dan
     
  13. OrandaLover1028

    OrandaLover1028 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Location:
    South Bend,In
    First,thank you both so much! And to be honest I haven't even tried to sex it yet, just been caught up in things. But if someone did want to work with me on breeding it I would be more than happy to do so & spread the fruits of said labor around to all Thoes intrested! :thumbUp:
     
  14. Ranchufan16

    Ranchufan16 Ryukin & Veil Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Location:
    northwestern Ohio
    Greg, Ranchu Rancher, has some ryukin that got Grand Champion a couple of years ago at the chicago show. I have some of that fishes babies...they are very promising. I must be honest...I am hoarding some fantastic fish..LOL just haven't shared them on this forum yet:) hehehehe I want to get a crop that is just absolutely fantastic, just need to find them time to do the 'hunting' for new "family" members. ANd I know Don that you have some show stoppers too!
     
  15. OrandaLover1028

    OrandaLover1028 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Location:
    South Bend,In
    Ian, I'd love to take a quick peek at thoes Ryukin beauties when i come by. Your advice has really helped me along this Ryukin path I've started on! I have a couple calicos I'm working with at the moment as well one is very similar in size & shape to the red & white that won last weekend just wish it had a touch more blue in it & of course the one with a lot of blue doesn't have as nice of a hump lol sure is a constant battle at times :)
     
  16. ballroomcoghlan

    ballroomcoghlan Active Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Location:
    Charlotte NC
    Sure wish...

    Sure wish you guys were closer. I have a pretty nice collection of Ryukin myself, and wish I did not have to try order/buy fish to move in the direction I want. Can't make the shows this year, but soon enough. North Carolina just doesn't have very many die-hards like myself...
     
  17. OrandaLover1028

    OrandaLover1028 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Location:
    South Bend,In
    I know the feeling! There is one local Aquarium society in my area & you should see the looks I get when I tell them I'm do goldfish. Everything is at least a few hours away if we could get enough people intrested I think it would be great to start other American Breeding Societies like the awesome Ranchu Program a lot of you have started this past year.... These Culling articles are just fablious & I really hope all of our authors continue to help educate us on the ins & outs of breeding & culling has anyone though about joining some of this with the AGA? Idk about any articles they may send to its members,as ive joined, yet not recived any notification that they recived or processed my application....but I feel like if we could really get a lot more people involved we could really expand goldfish as a hobby!
     
  18. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    Working on it, the AGA thing. We will have discussions at the show. The AGA is kinda at a crossroads. Hopefully my show is a springboard to similar shows... I think the East coast will be next. Good group there.

    Dan
     
  19. Ranchufan16

    Ranchufan16 Ryukin & Veil Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Location:
    northwestern Ohio
    You'll see em don't worry! I have a couple of goodies I'm gonna pass your way when you get here too. They are great for grooming and will turn into excellent beauties when they are bigger! Calicos can be difficult not sure the reason but I have seen only a handful with really exceptional humps. Perhaps some of the breeders like Don or Greg on here could give us a clue why this is the case. I have a few calicos that are decent fish..but the humps just aren't really where I would like them to bed. I keep them b/c they have either decent fins, head placement is good or they have the coveted BLUE!
     
  20. OrandaLover1028

    OrandaLover1028 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Location:
    South Bend,In
    I reallllllly can't wait!
     

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