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Herpes

Discussion in 'Goldfish Clinic' started by kendal, Dec 29, 2011.

  1. VeiltailGuy

    VeiltailGuy Professional Breeder

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    Jan 25, 2009
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    cleveland
    From a distance

    I think people are scared or nervous to post on this for worry of having their fish collection come under scrutiny. Keep the updates coming, I'm not sure people's heads are in the sand. I think they are watching from a distance!
     
  2. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

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    Dec 20, 2008
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    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Same issue

    So if you send fish off for GHV and they have VHS, what happens? :BackOut:

    I am most happy to help with this project, but I would never rish 49 years of fish keeping to do this, what do we do?:youtellme::youtellme:
     
  3. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    I agree with Gary. I think disease outbreaks are a by product of improper quarantine and over-crowded conditions. These viruses are part of nature and have always been there. There are probably a lot of healthy fish that harbor viruses, and the outbreaks occur when fish get stressed, moved around and overcrowded. This is certainly how it is with humans and other animal species. I think the vaccinate and over crowd ideology comes from the USDA factory farming mentality. Would you really be ready to destroy all of your fish just because they have antibodies that react with some protein associated with a known fish virus? How would they even know what the false positive rate is?

    Just my two cents.

    Rob
     
  4. VeiltailGuy

    VeiltailGuy Professional Breeder

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    So do nothing?

    So then we do nothing and let uninformed government bureaucrats make a bunch of overreaching laws because of not having detailed studies on the disease? Hope everyone buys up as many fish as they can before importation is shut down at MINIMUM...
     
  5. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    Hi Rick,

    I think we're on the same page regarding the potential for over regulation, but my guess is that research will yield diagnostics which will enable testing, which will require certifications, etc. At any rate the effect would be added expense to import if not an outright ban on importation. This sort of research is lucrative and creates lots of jobs in biotech, pharma and government. But I think there is panic followed by a false sense of security. Consider the CDC's dire warnings about every year's new flu strains, and then the vaccines that aren't ready until the flu season is over, or have only a 50% protection rate (how do they even know this?). The science is interesting, but I am resigned to accepting some viruses as a fact of life, and perhaps we should just focus on the husbandry/management side.

    Rob
     
  6. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    chesterland,ohio,usa
    ghv

    Has been cultured every where the labs have gone. Most fish live with it. The problem is the trigger. I had fish in my system for 9 years then the inactive virus become active and they all died. When testing first started it is surprising how many times Mickey and friends sent in fish from Disneyland. You can submit under any name or address if you wish to know about your fish. GHV is exclusive to goldfish and as of now no risk of spreading to other fish in the minnow family. As such there is no required testing for it at the borders.
    Farms take big losses from the disease and a cure would help the farms economically as well as genetically. Anecdotes and observations from the hobbyists may shed light on how to control or cure this virus. Two universities are going to do research on this for the farms. We benefit if they are successful. I am told that every time a state agent pulls a seine net thru one of the Great Lakes our goldfish hobby is in danger of coming to an end. If a school of goldfish are caught in a net full of shad or suckers that has SVC or VHS we could have a false positive and then the goldfish listed and restricted. GHV won't condem our fish but it would be nice to eradicate the disease.
    Many fish seemingly perish from protozoans and flukes. Truth is parasites don't kill the host. Costia or Gill Flukes on a fish weakened by GHV will die by bleeding to death. When we finally got true samples of fish with the "bad costia", they also had GHV. That is a tough combination to cure. There is no need to send any fish, enough are acquired for testing, you don't have to send in any information either. GHV is and will continue to be studied and hopefully cured, if not by the hobbyist, by the farms request.
     
  7. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    Arlington, Virginia
    These viruses integrate their genetic sequence into the genome of the host. Often the host's reproductive tissues are involved, and every sperm and egg produced will carry the viral genome. These are called endogenous retroviruses. When they use PCR to look for viral DNA sequence from host cells, eons old DNA that is integrated can look like an active viral infection. In fact, a huge percentage of the human genome is actually artifacts of viral DNA integration. I don't think "eradication" is a possibility, but certainly controlling the triggers to the viral replication is a worthy cause.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/06/14/we-are-viral-from-the-beginning/#.UUieAxyKJ2A
     
  8. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    triggers

    Why the virus lays dormant then kicks into action 9 years later is the mystery. It is temperature driven for sure plus other stress factors that are involved. There is a wash for Koi Herpes Virus, but nothing yet for GHV. If nothing else just to learn how to properly ship fish and then quarantine them to not activate the sleeping virus. It is believed but not yet proven that the virus is spread by vertical transmission or thru the egg from the female. This must be verified for use of a wash on eggs to be effective or not. The Koi community and farms have put together enough funding to achieve many goals, we the goldfish community have done very little. I understand the pricing difference and replacement costs for lost fish. KHV and GHV are miles apart in their viral make up. We have a big obstacle to hurdle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  9. Ichthius

    Ichthius Professional Breeder

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    Location:
    Eugene Oregon
    Hi Dave

    Can you tell us about the groups you're working with? I don't think you ever mention names but generally in academic circles people are open about who they work with.
     
  10. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    groups

    Yes ,they will make their announcements soon as funding is being procured now.
     
  11. nolaveils

    nolaveils Breeder

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    New Orleans
    PCR/NAT testing

    Viral testing utilizing PCR/Nat testing in the human blood bank industry is extremely accurate. False negatives can rarely occur with specific viruses during certain time frames of the life of the virus but rarely and backup tests pick these up. On the other hand, false positives do not occur if proper controls are utilized.
    No arguement from me that we live are full of viruses that normally have no detrimental affect on us. But we are not talking about those, we are talking about viral herpes which can be extremely dangerous.
    Kidney problems have been a problem in the tight gene pool of wheaten terrierrs for years but for decades anyone whose dogs produced problems usually did hot share the info with other breeders, afraid their reputation as a breeder would be ruined. Finally after many years with more and more dogs diagnosed, we formed an open registry where everyone in the club listed affected dogs. The stigma of having affected dogs was removed as everyone was in the same boat. That combined with money donated to the university of PA, we now have identified genetic markers for PLN and PLA and are now testing our breeding stock as to whether they are clear, carrries or affected.
    My point is it took years to get our heads out of the sand, remove the sigma of having an affected dog and deal with the problem. In the area of goldfish, most are probably affected with herpes since most people continually buy imported fish and mix them with what they already have. Some of these facilities oversees have been confirmed as having affected fish, so they just change their names and keep selling.
    Probably the best we can hope for is what Dave is asking, what can we do environmentally to keep herpes from becoming clinically significant in our own fish, temp, water, food, whatever? And have are fish tested when we suspect an outbreak in order to establish the viral load of the affected fish. Pooling our knowledge might really help in the long run.
    Thanks for reading my too long post.
     
  12. afertuna

    afertuna Professional Breeder

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    Portland Oregon
    I am glad that with the loss of Andy Goodwin I am glad to see there is interest by other people. I hope to hear more positive stuff in the future.
     
  13. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    I was interested in your example regarding PLN (protein losing nephropathy) in Wheaten terriers, but I thought you were referring to a herpes virus related disease. This one appears to be strictly genetic, and a good example of where genetic testing should be used. On the other hand, I found a good reference for how herpes virus related issue are handled by dog breeders. While goldfish breeders have the unique advantage of being able to control their animals' environments (keeping them in glass boxes), it is much harder to keep dogs from encountering viruses when they are kenneled or traveling to dog show. In this case, outbreaks are managed by reducing stress during pregnancy

    http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/vhr2.html

    I don't think this is denialism, it's just accepting what you cannot control and trying to manage the risks.

    cheers,
    Rob
     
  14. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    interesting reading

    Raising temperatures in puppies and in goldfish. Doing artificially what a fever would do in adult dogs, for puppies and fish. Again stress factors and environment are important in keeping the virus in check. We have more to learn. Thanks for the link.
     
  15. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    So if GHV can be controlled at higher temperatures, does it make sense to use heaters when introducing new fish (until immunity has a chance to develop)? Also, it seems like spring and fall would not be a good time to introduce new fish to a pond. Maybe late summer is best?
     
  16. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    what is known

    As it appears with goldfish. Raising temperatures to put fish in remission works only if the fish has a high enough count as to becoming ill. A count of 150.000 components or higher. Under that and the fish can be warmed to no avail. We find that shipping fish with ice packs or heater bags bring the fish thru the red zone to fast and stresses them and activates the virus. i have been told by one farmer he has ponds they only harvest in the fall and ones they only harvest in the warm months meaning each pond's fish has a different level of the disease. I recently had a friend send in fish for analysis. His fish registered 140,000 components. His fish are in the basement and never see 60 plus degrees. Fish from another friends house registered 2,000,000 components and were in the 70,s. When fish get to the red zone and have a high virus count it would be safest( it appears) to take them to 80 degrees and hold them there and then gradually decrease temperatures as in nature, a degree or two a day. Problem is you the owner won't know what the count is. Safest to warm the suspect fish when in doubt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  17. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    Fantasy

    I always had the thought that importers would work with me or the lab to have their imported fish tested. This would cut down on their losses as customers would get fish that survive and fish would not have to be replaced. They would then know how to advise their customers or how to treat the fish in quarantine before selling. This is a fantasy i know, but if you are an importer dealing with the same exporting farm one or two tests and you know the health of the farm and future shipments.

    Unfortunately i have just heard about the fourth herpes outbreak in the last two weeks and many more over the winter. Nothing on line. So it is happening but not talked about.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  18. nolaveils

    nolaveils Breeder

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    herpes in dogs

    Thanks for the reference Rob. Interesting article. Only thing re the article I found missing perhaps was that probably more dogs meet on the sidewalk in an urban city than ever meet at a dog show.
    In the end as you say, it's managing risk and trying to understand how to do that. And avoiding stress is a great starting point.
    Dave
     
  19. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    Arlington, Virginia
    Co-evolution of hosts and viruses

    After hearing stories of hobbyists importing new fish and experiencing die-offs of everything that the new fish were exposed to, it occurred to me that this might not be an entirely bad outcome from the perspective of the new fish. If a population is a carrier of a virus, but has immunity to it, then that population has an advantage since it can effectively eliminate its competition when it enters a new environment. This is pretty brutal, but reminds me of how the indigenous people of the Americas were wiped out by smallpox after the arrival of the Europeans. If a virus can infect two competing species (or populations), but only causes disease in one of the species, then the virus can persist in one host species, but cause nearly 100% fatality in the other. I found a reference that mentions how goldfish can be infected with KHV, but they do not show signs of disease. However, the infected goldfish can pass the virus on to koi, and the koi will die.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230846/


    >>Host Specificity: Although the disease is highly contagious, it appears restricted to Cyprinus carpio (koi and common carp) populations. In experimental challenges, tilapia (Oreochromis niloticus), silver perch (Bidyanus bidyanus), silver carp (Hypophthalmichthys molitrix), goldfish (Carassius auratus) and grass carp (Ctenopharyngodon idella) were found to be fully resistant to CyHV3 infection, even after long cohabitation with diseased carp at the permissive temperature [76]. In contrast, PCR analysis demonstrates that goldfish can be infected with CyHV3 [86–88] and cohabitation of carrier goldfish can transfer the virus to susceptible carp [87] but the infected goldfish showed no signs of disease. Also, koi × goldfish and koi × crucian carp (Carassius carassius) hybrids are susceptible to CyHV-3 infection, develop CyHV-3 disease and suffer high losses [89].<<

    Resistance of fish to CyHV3 infection could be due to lack of specific virus receptors, innate cellular immunity, or because of the host’s intensive immune response against the virus. Determining the susceptibility of cultured cells derived from cyprinid and non-cyprinid species to CyHV3 indicate that resistance of fish to CyHV3 is not solely determined at the cell level, and cells derived from cyprinid species manifest a differential resistance to virus propagation [18].
     
  20. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    observation

    DM1)Resistance to the disease by genotypes and phenotypes is seen in experiments in Israel and in the States. First priority is Vertical Transmission or not. Develop a wash or not. Israel is now trying to breed disease resistant goldfish as in their labs they have strains that never die from the disease. I am told that KHV and GHV are a world apart and that is why there is a wash for koi and not goldfish.
     

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