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Herpes

Discussion in 'Goldfish Clinic' started by kendal, Dec 29, 2011.

  1. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    personal observations

    I received a batch of the infected ghv fish. I broke them up into three vats. The vats are 30 gallon collection vats with lids. I drilled two holes in the lids. One for an air line to a sponge filter and one for a heater. i filled them and added one tablespoon of salt per gallon.
    Vat one was set at 86 degrees and at day 2 no more losses and in 6 to 7 days the fish appeared normal, swimming and eating.
    Vat number two was set at 82 degrees and the fish fully responded at 8 to 9 days.
    Vat number three was set at 79 degrees and at day 13 the fish are lethargic.
    I will increase the heat in vat 3 to 85 degrees. i am shutting down vat 1 and 2 and will send fish to the lab to see what levels the virus are at. i will also have the lab check the reproductive organs to make sure the fish we recover are breedable. I think 2 weeks at a temperature of 82 to 84 is more favorable then 86 to 88. I had losses at 86 but not at 82. the weaker fish may not have had the strength to handle the higher temps.
    Hope this helps anyone who might be having troubles with the virus.
     
  2. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    Dave, have you ever looked at the effect of Melaluca oil and fish viruses? This is also known as tea tree oil, and is the active ingredient in Melafix. It has been shown to be effective against a range of viruses including human herpes viruses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_tree_oil

    I wonder if this could be a good preventive measure when introducing new fish.

    Rob
     
  3. afertuna

    afertuna Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Location:
    Portland Oregon
    I think that we as a community need to move pass the stigma of the disease and talk about it . I love the fact there is an open dialog going on. I really like to see us in this community take action. This Virus IS present in most of our tanks but will NEVER be an issue. We all have important lines and breeds that we carry and we need to take a stance and look out for each other and ourselves. By Sharing our experiences we can assist the people studying the Virus and each other. Goldfish breeders and hobbyists honestly are the most important link to finding a way to work around the disease. We are the scientists that have the in home laboratories and the thousands of hands-on hours . Please lets keep this discussion up.


    A few years ago I had some fish brought in from Japan I quarantined the fish and I was pretty sure that I had done everything I knew to insure there would be no cross contamination. I ended up loosing all my fry from that year and not one fish from the Japanese group. Dave and I talked and I sent fish into Dr Andy. When we got the results in I was scared to death that I was going to hear the dreaded GHV. Some of the fish I sent in had traces of the Virus but did not die from it. It was a bacterial infection that killed off the fry brought in on the Japanese fish. I then spoke to him about the traces of GHV found in my own fish and how they were cross contaminated after taking all these precautions. The cross contamination could have been a combination of the Air bubbles popping at the top of the tank (spray) getting the disease airborn, Cats drinking from my tanks, and in the basement rodents drinking from the tanks. He said that this virus is really a strange one. A fish can test positive and never shed the virus or die from the disease. When a fish sheds the virus is when others will come in contact of the disease. He said in studies he has seen a full outbreak in a group of fish and have all the fish lost, and in other cases there have been survivors in a group. Unlike KHV when a fish sheds the virus all the fish in the group are exposed. In GHV you can have a full outbreak and have fish that were never exposed of the disease. Those same fish later can be added to a different group and be exposed again and become effected. He told me not to worry about the GHV counts he found in those fish they were within normal range and that most fish will test positive. What triggers the disease is what baffles them the most. Fortunately Dave has found that through speaking to farms, breeders, and collectors that it seems one of the triggers is heat.

    I received some fish this year and they were effected. I Lost an entire tanks of fish in a day all within an hour of each other. From the same batch that Dave is treating in his home. So far there have not been any signs of other fish being effective. My basement is in the upper 60's right now which is the danger zone. I am now on watch. There was a pump in that tanks that malfunctioned and sprayed water everywhere. So I have taken precautionary steps heating tanks to 80 degrees and salting. I HOPE that I am just being a worry wart but I would rather see my fish survive.
     
  4. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    melafix

    This is exactly the kind of information we need to hear from the breeder/hobbyists. Thanks for the lead!!!!

    With permission i can tell the site that Allen, Carlos, Harzan, Bluebelly and two others received fish carrying the virus. The one or two other members who received the same fish and have losses have not come forward. if there is something to learn is that None of the fish with Carlos have died or act ill, but all the rest of us have had many losses. We are sending more fish from carlos to the lab and taking the VITAL statistics to see why his received fish are doing fine. My thoughts are this. Carlos keeps his fish in the basement and very cool, the virus is probably inactive till he puts them outside this summer. We need to see if we can put them into remission and never activate the virus at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  5. harzan

    harzan Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2009
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Thanks Rob....I think i will try as I have a big jug of it from a sale and the oil as I am a Melaleuca believer.
     
  6. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    Plus it makes your fishroom smell nice:)
     
  7. kendal

    kendal Top-View Human

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    i hesitate to add my experience to the conversation, because i don't have any detailed facts because i was out of town (and got second hand from my 8-year old over the phone while i was on the beach in Kauai). she was having about 5 mass funerals a day for 2-3 days. but who knows, maybe there is something in this that is meaningful.

    i received a shipment last year of calico tosakin that looked fine upon unboxing. They were QT for a few weeks indoors but hurried into the pond as i left on vacation. the pond they were in was unheated and outside with water temps in the low 70s but likely had 10F daily fluctuations since this is a unheated outdoor pond at 5,000 ft above sea level. the pond was stocked with mixed breeds and sources. a few days after introduction, all the new fish died as did their siblings that i received many months earlier that were already in the pond. all but one ranchu died (all were large and from mixed sources). none of the home-bred tosakin died, nor did any of the young veils or bristols. now that i remember this it seems a little interesting that certain breeds and lines were taken out completely and others untouched even though all my fish had been sharing the same water for years.

    could UV/sunlight be a trigger like it is with human cold sores. or could the stress of shipping or transfer to a new pond likewise trigger? perhaps overnight temperature cycles? at the time i did not even think of GHV (i was 5,000 miles away on a beach after all and could do nothing about it). I have had no other other die offs before or since.

    in hind sight it would have been wise to bring this up and send a fish to be tested when the event was fresh.
     
  8. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    thanks

    UV and sunlight would not explain the indoor problems but does not mean that it is not an outdoor trigger!!! All these thoughts will be delivered to the doctors on the project. Thanks for thinking about it.
     
  9. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    quarantine

    Time to re-hash quarantine protocol. Let's hear from you guys what works for you the best.
     
  10. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Quaranteen

    Trouble with Herpes is the systems are the same or nearly the same as costia. I also am beginning to think that death by Costia may have GHV hidden in some cases. So, if you are getting new fish from an importer or a local breeder that has fish that are not isolated putting the fish in quarnateen is really critical. While I have isolated new fish in my fish room, it is way better to isolate in a different room if possible, why? Because viruses float on bubbles and are propelled into your other tanks.

    So here is a general program that I use when I import stock from somebody other than Dandy Orandas ( they are the exception, because of their ridgid quaranteen procedure.).

    1. Isolate the new fish, in a separate room, so the bubbles and air currents do not transfer the disease.
    2. Never put your fingers or hands in the water unless youwash with anti bacterial soap and then alcohol ( Purell) immediately.
    3. Once you scoop up a dead fish with a net, retire that net until it is disenffected, I freeze my dirty nets as a matter of practise until I get a bunch and then bleach them
    4. Heat the water to 82F to 84F
    5. Feed as much as they will eat and change water inpart every two days.
    6. I add some salt, and some formaldehyde to the system.
    7. An alterbnative to salt and formaldehyde is UV.
    8. Do not let the water fill hose touch the tank water.
    9. Before you put these new fish in the general population, add some test fish to the tank and watch for tw weeks.
     
  11. Auratus

    Auratus Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Are viruses killed by municiple water treatment? If not, are there practical ways to eliminate the threat? MORE chlorine? R.O.? Heating (how hot, for how long)?

    I recently lost several of my yearling beauties. They were all in one tank (the one receiving the most aggressive water changes). I don't know if the cause was one of these unspeakable semi-life forms, but given what I've read on this forum, I'm very suspicious. My water comes from Lake Erie and now I'm actually afraid to change the water in the rest of the tanks and tubs.

    Any information would be appreciated.
     
  12. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    No, the GHV virus problem is not with the municipal water supply. The viruses basically live in the infected fish, but can remain latent until the fish is stressed, and then the infected fish will begin to shed the virus. Often the infected fish has some immunity to the virus, but any fish exposed during this time will become infected. There is no surefire way to prevent this, but just be aware and follow the quarantine rules as posted by Cinci ranchu.
     
  13. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    personal update

    [QUOTE=bluebelly;5
    Vat one was set at 86 degrees and at day 2 no more losses and in 6 to 7 days the fish appeared normal, swimming and eating.
    DM 1)Today is the 14 th day so I unplugged the heaters and gave them a water change. All are fine

    Vat number two was set at 82 degrees and the fish fully responded at 8 to 9 days.
    DM 2)14 th day water changed unplugged all are fine.

    Vat number three was set at 79 degrees and at day 13 the fish are lethargic.
    I will increase the heat in vat 3 to 85 degrees. i
    DM 3) 15 th day, also with increased heat, Shut down heaters and did a small water change, Important+++ Had 2 sponge filters and two air stones in a 65 gallon with 4 adult fish. Un plugged one air stone to clean it, did a 25% water change. When I brought the new water back to the tub and put in the air stone again in that 5 minutes the biggest oranda suffocated from a small decreases in air volume, remember i had two sponges and one air stone going. That is how destructive the virus is to the gills, they bleed out and can't absorb oxygen.
     
  14. afertuna

    afertuna Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Location:
    Portland Oregon
    Today I moved all the infected fish into the same aquarium (125 gallon 10 fish) and turned the heat up to 86 degrees. The fish seemed fine I have had them at 80 degrees since the outbreak. They spawned last night and with talking to Dave today We think that the stress of spawning has activated the virus. I have upped the aeration and heat.
     
  15. CristolKat

    CristolKat Small-Time Hobbyist

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Location:
    Michigan
    Interesting thought.

    How 'safe' would you say LPS fish would be? Are the odds good that these fish would be infected?

    When I first got into goldfish (~7-8 yrs ago), I had a bout with what I thought at the time was costia. It wiped four of my tanks -- I have since upped my sterilization standards. But now I'm wondering if it was GHV. All of my fish at the time were LPS/Petsmart fish.

    thoughts?
     
  16. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    update

     
  17. afertuna

    afertuna Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Location:
    Portland Oregon
    no more loses and fish are active. Dave told me about adding more Aeration and I really think that makes a difference.
     
  18. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Stay calm

    Do no over read this post, Ghv has been around since the 80's, buy fish from LPS with no dead fish in the system that are acting normal
     
  19. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    update 5/14 an important date

    May 14th, a strong start at the lab today on the virus research. A good approach to understanding the mechanics of the virus and setting a course of action to remedy the situation. All are excited, looks promising.
     
  20. tijuanatoad

    tijuanatoad Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Does this mean hobbyist that buy goldfish from LFS, probably have fish that are carriers of a herpes virus? Nothing you can do except, provide optimum husbandry and deal with an outbreak by increasing the water temperature?:think:
     

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