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Not for Purists, but...

Discussion in 'Goldfish Breeds' started by Ranchutoo, Feb 24, 2015.

  1. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    Some of you were members of the GSGB in the 1960s / 70s. I joined as a junior member in the late 1970s. At that time, we had a policy that a variety had to have characteristics that meant it was not possible to confuse them with any other - so there was only one with a hood and a dorsal and that had a caudal different from the other twin tailed varieties etc. I am a firm believer in that approach. I was delighted for many reasons, including this one, when we moved back to a forked tail Oranda. It keeps the varieties separate and encourages their development.

    We suffer a lot on Moors as too many show signs of Butterfly tails and although I have lost this argument, the principle based approach tells me we should not recognise both the Ryukin and the Fantail (I am biased there!) or the Wakin. All three, though not necessarily good ones, could come from the same spawning. That means two out of three should not be recognised as varieties in my opinion.

    You see the cross breeding coming through in Celestials with small bubbles under the eyes and as Dave says "I always say you can not sight identify fish genetics.". Anyone buying a fish as a "X" variety can no longer be confident they are indeed buying that. How does that help? You just end up with Heinz 57 fish. No use to anyone. Hence my objection.

    The problem is bad enough without making it worse.

    Finally and for what it is worth, I honestly don't think Guppies and Clownfish are in any way relevant to a discussion about Goldfish.

    That's me done on this subject. I clearly haven't persuaded many so I am going to just hope for the US market that some follow the line breeding approach because one day imports will stop and then you will have nothing for the AGA to promote.
     
    orangecrush and egpinoy like this.
  2. nolaveils

    nolaveils Breeder

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Location:
    New Orleans
    Just trivia I guess, always read goldfish had been domesticated longer than practically anything else.
     
  3. Ununique

    Ununique Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2015
    Location:
    Lancaster, Pa
    For pure ornamental purposes perhaps, although I'd think the monks that originally kept carp in ponds may have been keeping them for a food source.

    Based on genetic testing the dog domestication age is like 15,000 years, apparently descendant to a wolf that doesn't currently exist. (i.e. not the gray wolf as previously thought).
    The cattle is even more interesting in that on just about every continent there was domestication going on with different breeds. I guess early man was asking the question "why hunt for this food when I can just breed it." :)

    First hobby breeders.
     
    Molybdenum likes this.
  4. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    Keep posting Fantail1, there are people such as myself that have your mindset and appreciate your posts. I try to set an example with my ranchu, as you do with your awesome Fantails.

    Dan
     
    egpinoy likes this.
  5. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    Thank you Dan. I have no intention of stopping altogether, though I wasn't going to post on this thread again as it seems like a lost cause.

    Sadly, though I won't change my name here, the Fantails have gone. I have the London Shus (for the to be built garden pond) and the Ranchu to develop and breed over the coming years. The principles don't change one jot though.

    David
     
    egpinoy likes this.
  6. opera

    opera accidental breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Location:
    TX
    Just as record.. I am with you fantail1....
     
  7. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    Thanks stinks on the fans. I love the UK fans, would love to get my hands on them, though John Parker thinks I am nuts.. Lol

    Dan
     
  8. TVRfan

    TVRfan Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Location:
    Coastal Plain of Va
    Just for the record

    I am for fantail1 too! But I am also for anyone that wants to try and develop a new strain (like Wee Yap), or Jeff Hiller, who COMPLETEY goes against purist and all current goldfish standards by not only producing, but PEDDLING Calico Tosakin. Hopefully anyone that paid money for Hiller's Tosakin knew what they were getting, and were not misled that these fish fit into any kind of standard for the breed. But what if someone wants a Tosakin and loves calico fish? Should they be stoned or shunned, not by me. (the standards are there, and so are the shows that award the best fish in accordance to the standards) And what if every Jikin that did not fit the standard because of color pattern was culled? Maybe Jikin would go the way of the dodo. The standard so tough to attain that some people actually been thought to chemically treat the scales, or pluck scales.
    I applaud keepers of B.E.P.'s and the like, and have even considered keeping some of these rare breeds. I AM A HUGE fan of the Livestock Conservancy and Heritage breed Chickens, ducks, cattle etc. My only point is there was a time when a purist of the Crucian carp looked at the beginings of the Ranchu and said this MONGREL is DIFFERENT, but I LIKE IT.
    No offense to the purists, we need them, no offense to the genetic dreamers though either. Otherwise, wouldn't we all be looking at single tailed olive colored fish? Gold fish, although a natural mutation is not high on the rung of the survival of the fittest ladder. I (in my postings) was just answering the O.P's thoughts / questions on crossing different strains. So kudos to the purists, and Kudos the breeders of "different" fish be they on multi hectare ponds, or basement breeders.
     
  9. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    On the subject of the Fantails, Practical Fishkeeping did an article on my fish last year and they very kindly have allowed the GSGB to use the photos on our website so if you go to www.gsgb.co.uk we have used a few of them on the blogs. Enjoy! I should also add they aren't lost - some are with an occasional contributor to this site and with our bulletin editor who knows the variety way better than I do, so they will still be seen at the shows.
     
  10. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    and thanks for the feedback!
     
  11. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    Btw Jeff Hiller has pure metallic tosakin I bred from boss imports, as well as calico crosses from Japan via Ted Tai.

    Dan
     
  12. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    calico x metallic R&W?
     
  13. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    The ones I bred where pure metallic. Gave to Jeff along with a few calicoes from Ted. He spawned pure and also crossed one of the calico to the boss line.

    Dan
     
  14. TheTruth

    TheTruth Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Location:
    ny state
    5yrs

    usually takes 5 yrs to work out the defects
     
  15. fantailer

    fantailer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Location:
    USA
    I don't breed goldfish, or know much about breeding.

    But I would (unless I was breeding for a show or too sell) just breed different breeds to see what I get, just out of curiosity.

    But, I am not an expert.
     
  16. opera

    opera accidental breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Location:
    TX
    That is what you think because you are not a breeder.. Once you become a breeder, you would know that you dont just mix two varieties and expect a miracle.. Once jonathanranchu mentioned before.. You can mix two varieties with good understanding about your fish.. You do not just cross anything that swim..lol..
     
  17. Jonas Axman

    Jonas Axman Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2014
    Location:
    Sweden
    On the contrary, I saw a beautiful girl swimming in the ocean. I crossed her with a fantail and got a beautiful mermaid! The only problem now is that she is constantly hungry and poops everywhere. :eek:mg:
     
  18. Erin80

    Erin80 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Location:
    Michigan
    I have a black moor and calico fantail that successfully spawned (accidental breeding). So far, not much coloring on the babies, but only 5.5 months old right now. It's hard to see in the picture, but my lil' guy is starting to get black in all his fins, and white-ish freckling around his mouth.
     

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  19. chocky

    chocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Location:
    WA, Australia
    I found sun light helped colour up my fry. They are around the same age as yours and some didn't colour up until I move them to the pond with more sunlight :)
     
  20. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    Given the metallic is from a met x calico cross it may never change colour. At present it looks like an uncoloured metallic.
     

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