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Presumed Dead, Found ALIVE!

Discussion in 'Goldfish Clinic' started by Calipso, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario
    About a week after I joined this forum, my Celestial goldfish went missing from my tank. She had been battling an illness of some kind so after looking inside my pleco's cavernous tree-stump (where my Celestial liked to sit just below), I just assumed she'd passed and had been found floating at the top of the tank by one of my cats.

    As the tank water had been medicated, I watched my cats for any signs of illness and when none came about, I figured we were out of the woods. I was saddened by the loss of my Celestial, but accepted that the tank was overstocked as it was and that I should be grateful the other fish hadn't gotten ill as well.

    Fast forward to about 4 days ago, I realized my bristlenose pleco was looking rather bloated. A friend and LFS co-owner, advised that she had probably just eaten a large meal. I told her I wasn't really sure what she would have eaten as I don't add algae tablets to the water for her and she pretty well lives in this stump. Concerned that maybe my Celestial had been overlooked inside this stump, I flipped it upside down, shook it around a bit in the water, and then pulled it out of the tank entirely and set it aside in an empty 5 gallon fish tank for over an hour while I did a 50% water change to begin medicating the tank for potential parasites.

    I put the stump back into the main tank after I was done the water change, and began a round of prazi in an attempt to save my pleco.

    Last night, my pleco was out of her stump and looked as though she was really beginning to pinecone. Assuming she had dropsy, and in an effort to save my remaining fish, I decided to quarantine the pleco in that 5 gallon tank and continue medicating with prazi.

    I took the stump out of the water again, and this time gently shook it around to encourage my pleco to abandon her hide. When that didn't work, I put it in the water again, flipped it upside down, and pulled it out, all the while - gently shaking this stump.

    Wouldn't you know it, my presumed dead, for over 2 weeks, Celestial flopped out of the stump and landed in the water along with the pleco. I was utterly shocked.

    Flounder, as she is known, is looking rough. I quarantined her in a fry basket within the 5 gallon with the pleco. They have an air stone and I'll be picking up a sponge filter this week. Her fins are a bit ratty looking, her breathing is a bit rapid, she has ammonia burn on her eyes (presumably from an ammonia spike within the stump - stump has since been permanently removed).... But she's eating, she's swimming fairly well, and although she is bottom sitting with clamped fins.... I'm expecting that she may pull through.

    I intend to make this thread the "follow along" for her progress as well as my pleco's (her names Bissel).

    BisselFlounder.jpg Flounder.jpg
     
  2. calico3

    calico3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Location:
    Orleans, On Canada
    That is amazing and I am so happy that Flounder is still around. I have a really big weakness for Celestials and have had a real hard time getting some as my goal is to try to keep them available for those whom admire them. I do hope that she makes a full recovery. However it does worry me that she was in the stump and perhaps Bissel made it difficult for her to vacate. Keep us posted.
     
  3. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario
    Flounder is doing a lot of bottom sitting, breathing has slowed quite a bit and I'm just not sure what to make of her condition. She ate brine shrimp very willingly and her excrement is quite thick and surprisingly healthy looking. I gave her 4 food pellets, which she did not go after at all until I hand fed her. At which point she ate willingly and sought out the remaining three pellets herself. Thinking right now she could go either way, but the eagerness to eat keeps me hopeful.

    Bissel's condition appears to be worse than I originally thought. Her scales are raised and she looks quite a lot like a pinecone. She is not interested in the shaved carrot slice that was offered, and her excrement is long, thin and stringy. At first she was spending a lot of time near the air stone which suggested to me that her breathing is possibly also impaired. She looks so incredibly uncomfortable. They'll sit overnight, and then I think I'm going to try a salt bath with Bissel.
     
  4. calicomj

    calicomj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Location:
    USA
    If you want to kill the Pleco, give it a salt bath. Salt baths are usually lethal to scaleless fish like Pleco. That common Pleco also DOES NOT belong with goldfish. They prefer a different environment (temp, food, etc), have a reputation for sucking on the slime coat of goldfish, grow to be two feet long sometimes, and they have a bioload just as high as goldfish.

    Your tank is overstocked and its making all your fish sick. If the Pleco has begun to pine cone and won't eat, there may be no saving her. I don't know how to treat plecos. Can't recommend anything. The mutant Celestials can't see properly and so often can't find food well. This explains why she's eager to eat but can't find her food.
     
  5. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario

    Bissel is not a common pleco, she's a bristlenose pleco. I bred her parents myself. In the 5 years I've had her, she's never once gone after the goldfish. I had a zebra loach that went after the golds though, and he was promptly rehomed.

    Flounder is 4 years old and has never before had a problem finding her food. Her eyes are damaged due to the conditions she was stuck in for 2 weeks -- that is probably the most likely cause of her lack of going for the pellets.

    Epsom salt will not kill my pleco. You simply halve the dosage and since their bodies absorb it faster, you don't allow them to sit in it for hours on end.

    And yes, my tank is overstocked. I monitor the crap out of my water quality however and change the water every 2-3 days. The commons/comet are pondbound this spring, and the remaining 4 golds are going into a 125 unless the modifications I make to it aren't enough to fit my standards, at which point I'm going out and buying a 135 instead.

    You don't have to like celestials, but please be respectful of the fact that I do and don't refer to them as "mutants".
     
  6. calico3

    calico3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Location:
    Orleans, On Canada
    Hello Calipso : Do you think KanaPlex may help your BN Pelco I do know that you have breed them so have more experience then most and although I will not keep with goldfish I think my experience is bias because when I had them in my early fish keeping days I only feed algae wafers which unfortunately my big older fantail developed a taste for and this maybe helped contribute to SB disorder. Now I know that the Pelcos diet was not what it should have been & if I had more tanks would love to keep them again.

    I too love celestials & most of our goldfish today resulted because of breeding from mutant carp , so goldfish provide their keepers lots of choice in varieties. We only have to keep them happy & healthy in the best ways possible. calicomj I wouldn't call any of your fish mutants. As Calipso said please respect our choices. Thank you.
     
  7. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario
    It might. I've already started treating with Prazipro however, and I'm not particularly fond of mixing medications to begin with. Bissel is pretty compromised as it stands and if there's organ damage then hitting her with a bunch of different meds can end up being more harmful in the long run. The epsom salt dip that I'm considering will act as a laxative -- which isn't something I necessarily need in her right now, but it will also bring down some of the pressure caused by the build up of excess fluid in her abdomen. Less pressure means more space for her organs and hopefully, more time.

    Flounder was swimming circles in her little net this morning so I moved her over to another tank where she remains extremely active, sifting through the substrate and eating well. So I'm planning to just monitor her for now. No sense treating her for illness if she doesn't have it.
     
  8. calicomj

    calicomj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Location:
    USA
    You said salt bath. I thought you meant regular salt since you didn't specify. Normally when someone says "salt bath" they mean regular salt. Epsom salt isn't truly effective when given only as a bath.

    All fancies are mutants, including my favorite variety: Ryukins. As a fancy goldfish keeper, we need to accept and respect that. They're mutants more prone to disease and swim bladder issues than normal fish. They often have features which do them zero good and are only for aesthetics. Wens, humps, bubbles, fat bodies, etc. Trying to deny the fact that they're mutants doesn't change it. They're mutants. We love weird looking mutated and genetically modified fish.

    Celestials have more mutations than most fancy types though which often cripples them more than many types. IMO, there's a limit to what we should do with these fish and a fish that cannot even see well enough to find food because it's mutated to where its eyes point UPWARDS does cross the line for me. Didn't mean to offend.

    Since this is no longer relevant to the subject of treating the fish, I will leave this thread so as not to go too off topic. Good luck and I hope the fish recover well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  9. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario
    Your opinion of my preference in fish wasn't of any value to this thread, which is clearly about healing and promoting good health. I'm not breeding nor have I bred this particular fish, so I don't see the need to get your panties in a bunch about where her eyes point and then calling her a mutant. I accept and am the first to admit that my celestial is not the most well-bred of fish, but I don't see how that even plays a role in this particular issue. Her vision has never been an issue before now, and the only reason it is an issue now is because she had jammed herself in a hole in a tree stump, trapping waste and creating an ammonia spike within the stump itself which compromised her vision. Her pupils were crystal clear up until she got trapped in the stump.
     
  10. Sbuggg13

    Sbuggg13 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Location:
    NY
    I know it's still off topic, but I just wanted to add to Calicomj's statement that all fancy goldfish are indeed mutants. I honestly think you are taking it to heart with what she said. I don't think she was being rude, I think she was just adding to the fact that yes, a celestials eyes are pointed up which can make it hard for them to find food, if you add this on to the fish's ammonia burn, it could be very difficult. I think she was just saying that this specific breed is already mutated quite a bit so the added stress and illness could potentially damage it's ability to find food and heal. I don't think you should get offended when someone calls the fish mutated, because it is..Just like all of the fancy goldfish breeds. Maybe she put it in a way that offended you, but from reading the post I don't think it was meant to be that way and I don't think she was referring to your specific fish and how well it was bred.
     
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  11. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario
    When referring to any other breed of goldfish, people often don't say "the mutant Ryukin", "the mutant Oranda" etc... It was stated to sound derogatory and I'm not going to tolerate that. Has the fish been genetically modified to produce genes that mutate the appearance? Absolutely, there's no denying that. But worded the way it was just didn't sit well with me. She was in fact quite rude.
     
  12. Sbuggg13

    Sbuggg13 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Location:
    NY
    Well to each their own, I don't think she was. I can't speak for what everyone else says with other goldfish..but I have heard others use this terminology before. I think we're all here because we love goldfish in general, so I don't see why anyone would be derogatory towards certain breeds of goldfish. People have their preferences, sure..but I never really see anyone be derogative.
     
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  13. shakaho

    shakaho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Location:
    Orlando FL
    She was not the least bit rude. A mutant is a creature with a mutation. Mutant is not a derogatory term. It's a biological term. As a biologist, I will apologize for biology offending you.
     
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  14. calicomj

    calicomj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks ladies. She took it the wrong way but its all good. No point in arguing here. Take it easy OP, wasn't trying to be rude. You just perceived it that way. ALL the fish are mutants, including mine, and its really not a big deal. We love them anyway.

    By the way, if she could see properly instead of only upwards, she might not have jammed herself into a log. Just saying. Celestials need specially designed tanks since they're more prone to these things. Again, not being rude... Just being real.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  15. Calipso

    Calipso Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Location:
    Ontario
    Flounder is back in the main tank. Her fins are healing nicely and she remains quite active.

    Bissel is showing some improvements as far as general bloating, however maintains zero appetite and is excreting no waste. I will likely be euthanizing her.

    The tank is no longer overstocked, 5 of the fish were relocated to a pond. Naturally, we needed a new algae eater so the kids have picked out a few mystery snails. They've been named Shark, Swiffer and Roomba.
     

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