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the art of changing water

Discussion in 'Goldfish Conversation' started by bluebelly, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    I am totally aware of it. I am re-using my old fish water for garden and lawn. All my plants are very healthy and fruits are getting huge huge without using any chemical. Just need to find a way to re-use it.

    I like the idea of algae scrubber and haven't seen anybody actually implementing the idea in goldfish world. Please let us know your result. You might want to keep result of how much your fish grow before and after using it.. Thanks.
     
  2. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

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    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    Agree with you.. For me, I like HOB better and also need to keep in mind that you need to clean the filter once a month..
     
  3. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    I completely agree with Chris - whatever system you use, watching the fish is crucial. Even if you have a filter, things can go wrong and if you don't then they WILL go wrong if you don't stick to your regime.

    My initial views on Rob's point about Ranchu is that he may be right. I found it easy to grow large tozai in a filtered system but the hood development wasn't so great. However, I will be trying again over the coming year or two so I will let you know how I get on.
     
  4. makemus

    makemus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I have to agree with Comet , maybe we are just to "green" to understand the importance of such constant water changes . It would appear that if a hobbyist has strong bio material in their filter , live plants , dont overfeed , keep the poop out & keep an eye on ammonia levels & fish behavior , that this is a great start . Based on the above - maybe you need to change your water weekly or monthly . We could be totally missing something ....

    Also , let me ask you this - lets say you have a 55 gallon tank , which is advised to have no more than 4 fancy fish in it . Lets say you overstock it with 6 fish . Isnt the amount of fish predominately based on what the AVERAGE tank can easily support via the bio-load ? Again , I go back to the top - IF you can maintain "0" ammonia & have a healthy biological set up , can you not safely house more than the suggested 4 fish ?

    Again , I admit to being less experienced than you all , I am only thinking with some logic - Which could be flawed thinking .

    Please set people like myself and Comet straight :please:
     
  5. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

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    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    There is a great deal in what you say. If you are looking for reasonable growth in a display aquarium in the house, then what you say is absolutely fine, in fact it is the way to maintain the aquarium.
    However, if you overstock the aquarium, then the ability to maintain that balance is stretched and the margin from error more or less disappears and a sudden shock – eg overfeeding or a drop in temperature meaning the fish go off their food or you miss a water change and trouble can start very easily – check out the posts on this or any goldfish forum and you will see them littered with that story. It is much much harder to successfully maintain an overstocked aquarium for months, let alone years and as Goldfish live for years, that is the timescale you are looking at.
    Don’t forget that the fish should grow to say 6-8 inch body length (fairly typical for a twin tail) so just because the tank looks empty when they are 1 inch long, it won’t be many months before it looks full.
    The other thing to bear in mind is that many of the contributors here are not looking after a display aquarium in the house – they are breeding the fish for exhibition / sale / the challenge. That requires a different technique. Plants get in the way, can harbour pests, block pipes. Gravel likewise. The water is the key to their success too, but they are pushing harder so they have to use other techniques to achieve their goal.
     
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  6. makemus

    makemus Member

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    Sep 19, 2013
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Thanks Fantail - Least I know that I am not " crazy " . I do understand that there is a difference between hobbyists and breeders. With so many members , I just wanted that to be clear. It can be very discouraging to a new hobbyist if they are reading threads geared toward breeders. ( and no , I am not overstocked , I only have 3 fish - was just a question that has been gnawing at me )

    Thanks again ~
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  7. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

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    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    I can't comment on whether you are overstocked - that depends on the number and size of the fish, the filtration and your expertise.

    This forum is mostly frequented by breeders rather than keepers and to illustrate the point, my expertise at keeping an attractive tank indoors is zero.
     
  8. Ripitake13

    Ripitake13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Location:
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    I am Doing 100 percent water changes because ammonia nitrite and nitrate can build up over time. So if you do a 20 percent water change you are only removing 20 % of the harmful "stuff". So there is still 80% of the harmful "stuff" in the water. So these will multiply FASTER then they did last time so you will end up with more in your water when you do your next water change.
    So they will just keep building up.

    But if you do 100% water changes then they will not multiply too much faster the next time you do a water change and will still be in the "safe" area.

    Yes plants do help a bit but water changes are still a MUST no matter how many plants you have.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  9. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

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    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    For sure, John(one of our fish guru) will love your comment. I am doing it for the same reason too.
     
  10. bigbettadan

    bigbettadan Professional Breeder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Location:
    Indy USA
    Good luck raising actual quality goldfish, much less a ranchu with good wen/hood development. Water changes is the number one tool we use.

    Dan
     
  11. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    The art of changing water ,second time

    The art is to know the fish, water, filtration and what you want to accomplish. Yes I want show fish or I want BIG fish or breed fish.
    1) I change water to REPLACE the trace elements and minerals which the fish need. You can filter to your heart is content and have no nitrates or what ever, you still need to ad to the tank what the fish is consuming, you need knew water not filtered water..

    2) i change water to remove the hormones secreted by the fish that inhibit growth or don't change if i am growing heads or tails.
    I determine what tanks are being conditioned for spawning and what tanks are for growing and what tanks are for grooming and treat the tanks differently.

    Rob ___Yes a flow thru is NOT the best for head growth because you are eliminating the hormones that stunt growth and allow fins and head growth to develop. I think Kendal wrote about the old masters say changing water on the fourth/fifth day as the first three are for body and the fourth/fifth for head growth. The fish produce a hormone that tells the other fish we are crowded, this puts body growth on hold while the protein then goes to head or fin development. If you need growth you change more water,you are tricking the fish in to thinking space is available and keep growing, if you are grooming then you need to adjust your wc , but you need to know your water parameters and water qualities.
    3) Goldfish farming is a business that relies on fooling nature. Farmers will say I am breeding my fans on Tuesday and comets on Wednesday and THEY DO. They know almost nothing of genetics but they know water and the fish. To develop this hobby we need to observe and study and keep records and know our WATER!
    STATEMENT/QUESTION-- One grizzled old timer told me I never put spawned fish into new water, i always put them back into old water when the spawning is done. Any takers on this one.
     
  12. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    good points

    You make mostly good points, but the wasting water part has a lot to do with your source of water and the location you live. East of the Mississippi River and adjacent to it, water is not a limited resource. Excess water allows for better fish culture. Fuethermore, certain varieties require more frequent water changes in order to get proper size, shape and wen.

    There are two parallel paths in this thread, one for hobbyist and one for breeders. The breeders tend to have more stringent rules for water changes and fish density, and food, while hobbyist are mostly concerned with the art. In many cases they do not overlap.
     
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  13. kitsilano

    kitsilano Japanese Ranchu Breeder

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Location:
    Singapore
    I read through all the postings and there are so much excellent sharing of ideas on water change...great for reading and a fantastic platform to be exposed to various methods and ideas.
    Like Chris pointed out in here.....

    The "FULCRUM" of all activities and whatever systems we use...I believe we must train our eyes to see/observe what is normal and what is abnormal. Making a point to sit and observe even for that few minutes everyday...is a "Must have" and "Must do" chore if we want to improve goldfish keeping....I fully agree and strongly promote!!

    I am just a ranchu keeper...so my contribution is more leaning towards ranchu and please take it with a pinch of salt as I try to be as "thot provoking" as possible. These are my opinions and as opinions do change over time as one improve...please be mindful that it is coming from a little guy in the Far East with very different weather and water system.

    It is an accepted norms amongst ranchu players playing top view ranchu to go filterless as all the Japanese Masters/Breeders/Hobbyists in Japan practice this method of keeping ranchu...just airstone and water and 100% water change every 4/5 days. For example....Master Oishi famously shared in this interview.....

    http://www.fynnmood.com/articles_importbbr.html



    If we seriously look into the word "ranchu accepted norm"...it literally tell us about cultivated habits built and tested over time that become an accepted behaviour or procedure that the Japanese have ingrained and instilled as method of maintaining and grooming ranchu. I tend to think that system are built with safety and convenience in mind....if we look at how many tubs these Japanese breeders/players maintain...changing water is a huge activity...so rather than say look at individual tub and decide which tub to change water....the Japanese would have to be very systematic and mechanical about water change...so they change water according to groupings like Tosai,Nisai and Oya or breeders and comp fishes or even change water according to the tub rows.


    For me the idea about accepted Japanese norm in ranchu keeping is always the basis I will go back to for safety and convenience, but because like many of us with full time job and family commitmenets, somehow we have to improvise. I extend my water change on most weeks to last 5/6 days where I will do 100% water change on weekend and do smaller flushing of debris ...as and when during the week...that way I maintain the water to last more that the 4/5 days cycle. If I find too much debris floating in the tub, I might throw a plastic plant in there and by evening when I am home, I just suck out all the debris that automatically get attracted to the plant. Like Chris mentioned about being observant...the other habit that I routinely do when my water are older and might be foul is to practice smelling the water....sometimes when we have some sick fishes/going to be sick fishes...the water is the first tell tale sign bcos of the sick fishes.


    Wen and hood growth and its relation to water change. We are familiar with how wall algae, bloodworms etc are inputs that help in growing the wen and the hood and roughly that is what we term "trigger reaction"....You want to shoot an object you fire a gun at it...you want wen growth...the trigger is to feed more fbw...it sound simple, but many attempted and still cannot manage decent head growth. The missing link might be the understanding of water and water change. So we know the first two days after water change the ranchu swim a lot and put on length and as the water get more foul...the swimming is less and the ranchu put on more head growth. Now as ammonia and nitrate start building up from all the discharges from the fishes, the ranchu tend to swim less...so by staying less active the ranchu grow the wen and hood...frankly I read this many times and it get repeated in many conversations I had with many players and I am still baffle by it....wish there is some scientific research done on this. I also read and I wish I can remember where and which website...the wen and hood growth is an unnatural phenomena...it is a form of cancerous growth triggered by fouling water quality...I hope you guys don't fell off your chair and that is some "food for thought" for the weekend.


    I am in the tropic so there is no four season and keeping ranchus is less challenging. If you look into this Japanese keeper...in Spring thorugh Fall...he maintain clear water, but as Winter approaches he keep his fishes in bacteria water and during winter his ranchu stocking is very high.....


    http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~tom43noble/2013_01.html


    You run through his picture postings through the different months and maybe those in four seasons can pick up some ideas on water management.


    http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~tom43noble/2013_siikukiroku.html
     
  14. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    Thank You

    As usual you respond and deliver. Thank you for answering.
     
  15. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    I liked the handspawning technique into a vaseline coated bowl with a small amount of Ringer's solution. Does the Ringer's solution prevent the eggs from sticking to each other? I found a recipe for an emergency ringers solution made from readily available grocery items:

    http://chemistry.about.com/od/labrecipes/a/Ringer-S-Solution-Recipe.htm

    Thanks,
    Rob
     
  16. Amy S

    Amy S Professional Breeder

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    Sep 21, 2009
    Location:
    Kansas
    Completely fascinating.
    Couple of questions; What is the B Bacteria that is mentioned? Also, what type of "birdseed" is being fed? Does anyone know? Not that I plan to feed birdseed....
     
  17. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

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    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    I wouldn't interpret the translated Japanese too literally, I doubt they mean bird seed as we know it, probably just pellet food or something.

    Rob
     
  18. gillian

    gillian Well-Known Member

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    Dec 23, 2012
    Location:
    brooklyn, ny
    three cheers for poret. boo for hob

    this is exactly how one of my veiltails got sick once. my first tank had a a hob and i couldn't figure out why the water quality was so poor. then when upgraded the tank and got replaced the hob, i saw the grossness that lurked inside the filter. it kept causing my tank to crash and cycle.

    i have a poret foam wall now as my only filter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  19. Ichthius

    Ichthius Professional Breeder

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    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Eugene Oregon
    It's a salt solution that keeps the eggs inactivated. At work for cryopreservation of sperm we've started washing the males in a similar solution to prevent their urine from dropping the osmolality of the sperm, activating it. Once eggs or sperm see a drop in osmolality the clock starts ticking.
     
  20. Virginia ranchu

    Virginia ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Arlington, Virginia
    So if I understand the technique correctly, you mix the milt and eggs in Ringer's solution, then swirl into fresh water hatching tub to initiate fertilization...does the Ringers also keep the eggs from clumping together?

    Rob
     

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