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the art of grooming

Discussion in 'Goldfish Conversation' started by bluebelly, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    If you follow this site you know there is a lot of emphasis on grooming ranchu. grooming is controlling the environment so as to get the best desired results from the genetics of the fish. in some cases it may be to overcompensate for a flaw or to maximize a feature. In every situation there are some basic rules to follow and maybe some improvising to reach the desired affect.
    Many a veil tail goes by the wayside because the body or peduncle is to weak to carry the tail because of food or water depth. Maybe it is the ryukin who was under fed and did not start a hump or a weak bristol tail whose tail has scissored. Some flaws may be genetic and you remove them from the breeding program, others simply fish raised under the wrong conditions. in the series on culling the topic was touched on. I think it is due to call on the breeders and "groomers" to fill in the blanks. Example. In the 90's Al T , Carlos P and myself imported bristols from Tisbuy in the UK. Dave T did not tell me they were from T Roberts, doesn't matter. Tony and the other bristol breeders raise their fish in 8 inches of water to keep the bodies long and thin and the tails upright. Dave T said what ever you do do NOT put the fish in a big pond. So the first thing I did was to put 24 of the offspring in a one acre lake 16 feet deep. i will try to show you pictures of some 11 year old fish with super tails from that pond. Yes I have a fuller body but the tails are very strong. We need to start a grooming thread for each fish type. Volunteers please.
    1)Veils/Broadtails
    2)Ryukins
    3)Ranchus
    4)Bristols
    5)Single Tails
    6)Orandas
    Joe Linale once said he could put a hump on a veil if he over fed them at a certain age. There is a lot to learn and share. Any Takers?
     
  2. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    Dave, thanks for starting this great discussion. I hope people will submit articles for their expert fish.

    Grooming is very important for everyone. Even you don't bring your fish to the show, it is necessary to groom your fish. By proper grooming, you are giving the ultimate condition for your fish and expend their life span. We know we are a responsive pet owner and love our fish.

    Hope to see articles soon..
     
  3. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    Hi Fred

    is that true - would grooming necessarily improve longevity? It might not - rapid growth or foods to enhance key features may not be ideal for them and might shorten their lives having made them look better in the interim.

    Don't forget grooming is for us, not them!
     
  4. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    in my opinion, grooming is equivalent to raising our child by providing all necessity stuffs. Not just feed them two meals a day and a pair of dress for merely survive. The goal is for every one to have healthy and happy fish in their tank.

    Pumping is something else which we might use.
     
    KimA. likes this.
  5. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Veiltails

    I currently have five lines of veils;
    1. Calico Philadelphia
    2. Other Calico Philadelphia
    3. Calico English
    4. Metallic Philadelphia
    5. Tircolor Veiltails
    I am also trying to sort out by backcrossing the Blue Philadelphia and I also have Broadtail telescopes that are not yet a line by my definition.


    I have been growing Veiltails form Foster ( Phildelphia) since about 1985. In the early days, breeders were just trying to keep them going and eliminate faults brought on by in-breeding. These faults included tail streaks, suckerface, excretions form the fins, and tail sitting ( probably more)

    In the early 90's we were trying many things to recclaim the vigor and longevity without doung te absurd.

    I chose intially to shorten the tail by crossing Chop tails to veiltails and I was partially successful.
    In the mid 1990's I partnered with Greg Rau to have less risk of loosing everything and have more spawns to work with. I few years later Doug Wolf added to our little group. To us, grooming was linked to slelction of breeders.

    For the Philadelphia Calicos we find the fish to be very hardy and many of the excess stock are wintered outside, in a pond that is a minimum of 18" and has a deep spot of 36".

    Indoors, the fish really do well in tanks with plants but no gravel. Typically these include Anubias, Ceratophylum, Duckweed and Anacharis. Indoor tanks and tubs are typicaly 18" deep for adults. Youngsters are typically in 12" to 18" of water.

    All tanks have either Porret Foam or sponge filters. Water changes are 100% ( equivalent) in warm weather and 50% in the winter. Up to 2.5 years of age the fish can be in about 12 gallons of water each. Older fish typically go outside or are kept in about 20 gallons of water.

    Fry get LBBS and dry food after free swimming, LBBS is discontinued at about 4.5 weeks and Adult FBS is fed. Since my eyes are oldish, I typically do the first major cull at 5-6 weeks. At this point you can start to see if the fish is going to have black in the tail, ( a good thing). Also at the addition of AFBS, I start with 0.5mm sinking pellets from Kens ( Kensfish.com)

    Initial culling is from the top and then as they color secondary culling is based on peduncle width, length of tail, peduncle attachment. Another key factor is height of the dorsal fin and whether it is held upright.
    At three months I pick a group of 8-10 as breeders for the following years and these go into a spacial display tank. As Philly Veils often breed at 12 months and continue to spawn for many years I often use my outdoor stock as a buffer and also, my buddies to ensure that I have stock. We tend to swap fish several times a year.

    My English are new to me, the major difference is that I have several yearlings outside to ensure the blue appears. These fish also get massive, when they get older they sometimes lay down on the bottom ( I hate this, but it is better than floating).

    My Philly Metallics are grown the same way but I sometimes bring in a decolored metallic from the calico cross to bring in vigor. This has proven to be risky as you can get 100,s of slow to decolor fish.

    The Tricolor Veils are also grown like the calicoes but, these fish need to be watched to make sure they have tri - colors ( red, black and white) and that the tail attachment is correct.
    I amy have a true all black metallic (1)
    Last comments:

    Most people do not feed these fish enough protien and then they look long and thin. Feeding FBW, ABS and Gell food for one meal a day is very important to their long term vigor.
    Most people who struggle with these fish have failed to stay on a fixed water change schedule.
    Questions???
    FBW frozen blood worm
    ABS Adult brine shrimp ( frozen)
     
  6. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    important message


    David , a veil that is poorly fed will never carry its tail and not live long. A veil groomed for the show bench to be shown in the first year will be reared differently and may not have longevity.
    Could you tell us what you do for the show bench and in your opinion what would be adequate for the regular hobbyist. There has to be a balance between body and tail, even comets can get out of balance.
    I was always told to feed the veil fry heavy so as to produce big bodies with short tails. Then allow the tails to grow in later when the fish can support them. This was always a question of husbandry over the genetics, assuming the veil trait was there. Is husbandry as important as the genetics? We have had this before. Is each type of fish different or each strain or is that something the hobbyist needs to learn individually?
     
  7. Cincy Ranchu

    Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    It is confusing

    The best 1/2" fish with straight tails are often short lived because you are picking a fish with too long of a tail. The hardiest fish are short tailed and sometimes appear to have a slight indentation in the tail ( not scalloped, just the ends are longer that the middle). These fish grow into a perfectly straight tailed fish by the age of 10 months +/- 2 months. These fish, in our breeding groups opinion are the future breeders as they will not be weighted down by the sail called a tail.

    For the show bench, build robust, almost fat fish with bloodworm and brine shrimp and gel food, and clean water. The fatter they are the shorter they look to judges. also the fish has to be inside for about 3 weeks to prevent potential fraying of the tail. Big veils can be the couch potato of the fish world, quit feeding or feed only frozen food in small amounts for two to three days before the show. A hungry fish is an active fish on the bench.
    Before you go to a show find out if mock metallic and uncolored ( chocolate) veils can be exhibited. These fish have the best form, I suggest exhibiting a colored fish and a uncolored or mock metallic.:coffee:

    While my veils did well this year at the AGA show, I think your best bet is generally the <3" class for veils. If the fish is perky and colored it is hard for a judge to pass up because of their history and the fact that they are not grown commercially ( generally).:thumbUp:
    If you desire to raise and groom veils for show, I would buy fish as they are converted to adult frozen brine shrimp. These fish are typically just starting to color and six fish can start in a 55 gallon pretty easily.
     
  8. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    confusing, maybe to some

    What may be confusing to new hobbyists is probably that grooming for pet, show or breeding may be three different methods of keeping. We need the grooming from an experienced keeper who does not show or breed or Gary , David G, David L do you guys want to wear three hats. Like gary said above about conditioning for a show then you can return home and condition for breeding, the experienced guys all have their favorite methods.
     
  9. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    for me the different between show fish method and hobbyist fish method is base on amount of feeding and frequency of water change. Show fish need extra food + water change while hobbyist can go with less.
     
  10. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, England
    This experience is based on Fantails and won't apply to Ranchu or Veils.

    I do not have the facilities to keep some fish for show purposes and others for breeding. My Fantails have to earn their keep potentially as both but with the choices for either purpose made by selection from the available population.

    For our shows we use 14"x10"x8" tanks. We have a minimum size of fish of 2 1/4", but my concern is that anything above 4 -5" will struggle in such a tank for many hours so I tend to show fish that are nisai rather than oya or if they are oya, the are only 21/2 years old.

    This means that in turn I am looking for my fish to peak on the show bench in their first three years. I am not looking for them to be exceptional show fish age 5, for example. That influences what I do in my selection.

    I am happy to use older fish that are past their show peak for breeding, because I know what they were like when they were younger and while they are too large or are no longer "show quality" I know they can produce good younger fish.

    There are a few kept as "reserves" for breeding purposes that would not be used in a show but could provide genetic material if needed in an emergency. (Though as they are kept with the rest of the fish, quite why they would survive such an emergency when the others didn't, is a point I hadn't thought of until now!)(Doh!)

    Now here is a controversial point - in essence there is not much difference between grooming for show success (not that I have that much) and grooming for a display aquarium in the home!

    To grow fish well for display, they need plenty of light, warmth, good food and clean water. The result should be large, colourful, healthy fish. To do so for show bench and for breeding needs exactly the same, in general terms, plus selection of the fish.

    The main variation is in temperature. I want my fish to hibernate each winter, as I think I need the rest and so do they before conditioning for breeding in the Spring. Therefore my fish are fed intensively in the Autumn and Spring, not at all in Winter (about 8 weeks) and moderately in Summer. The water quality issues follow the feeding regime so the maintenance programme is very seasonal.

    This means my fish will be smaller than those grown in a constantly warm display aquarium.

    The other main variations will be choice of food and water depth. Water depth for spawning and fry is about 6". For adults (ie nisai and oya) it is about 10-12". I want the fry in the warm shallows for their first 6 - 8 months. It keeps them close to their food and sort of mimics nature. The spawning media are only removed a good 4- 6 weeks after hatching, maybe longer.

    Regarding food, the fry get newly hatched brine shrimp for 8 - 10 weeks, to get them the best start I can manage and they never see flake foods. I sometimes use granules or pellet, but have not used any this year. The vast majority of their food is frozen blood worm. Thankfully, with very few exceptions, the Fantails don't seem to be developing hoods!

    That brings me to the final variant - selection. Most display aquarium fish will be bought from retailers. Their quality will be, generally, lower. Their genetics are less important in many ways, but they will also be the sorts of fish I would sell to the LFS as I don't want them as I am selecting to meet a show standard. The defects in the tail, the dorsal contour etc will show up more as the fish grows.

    I am not sure if I have answered the question, but feel free to tell me so and I can try again!
     
  11. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

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    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    orangecrush likes this.
  12. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

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    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    excellent

    This is superb Fred, exactly what we need to know. This needs to be marked as must read for all ranchu hobbyists. Hope a Side View hobbyist fills in the other grooming strategy.
     
  13. herp17

    herp17 Ranchu Rookie

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    Mar 25, 2009
    Location:
    Baltimore
  14. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    the blue one? I got it from Paul..
     
  15. lacole725

    lacole725 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Location:
    Auburn, AL, USA
    I've been looking for SVR grooming articles, but they are few and far between.
     
  16. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bergen, New Jersey
    SVR articles is on the way..Hope our big sister finish it soon..
     
  17. Deleted User

    Deleted User Guest

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Location:
    Cloverdale California USA
    How do I groom my ryukins?

    I have about 20 red and white ryukins. One is orange. A few are just white. I feed them New Life Spectrum Goldfish formula pellets and blanched veggies. I make sure their dorsal rays grow strong by adding Kent's R/O to make the water really hard. What other ways can I groom my ryukins besides feeding really good color enhancing food and making sure they have enough minerals in their environment? I've heard hard water and dark surroundings give goldfish a certain winning "sheen" to them.

    Glenn
     
  18. bluebelly

    bluebelly Ambassador

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    chesterland,ohio,usa
    culling articles, ryukin

    I asked Fred to rename these articles the GROOMING Articles. They are very informative. I think the name culling gives them a bad spain so maybe a positive name will make more people read them.
     
  19. Ranchutoo

    Ranchutoo Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Location:
    Virginia USA
    This thread started out so promising, then it stopped. Does the discussion continue somewhere else with more information on grooming different breeds? With 18 breeds of goldfish (not including the common goldfish...), I was hoping to find grooming information on each breed.
     
  20. orangecrush

    orangecrush Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Location:
    Loma Linda, CA 92354
    I agree. It is now July 2, 2016, and still nothing. Not everyone needs info. on grooming TVR. Not that I have anything against TVR, but I was looking for grooming tips for Ryukins.

    Jim.
     

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