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Wen Surgery on an Oranda Goldfish

Discussion in 'Goldfish Clinic' started by *Ci*, May 12, 2009.

  1. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Sunday, May 10, 2009

    Subject:
    5 year old male Oranda. For the past 12 months he has gradually stopped swimming much and just sits on the bottom till food comes.
    He obviously can not see well and bumps into things in his hurry to eat.
    I decided to trim his wen to uncover his eyes and reduce the bulk a little.

    Before wen trim:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Research:

    http://thegab.org/Articles/SurgeryWen.html

    \http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86876

    http://www.texaskoi.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=58

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFIMd8vpDw&feature=related

    Procedure:

    Laid out my tools - sterilized with Hydrogen peroxide. Towel and pan to lay the fish in. Good light. Batteries in the camera!

    [​IMG]

    The recipe for anesthesia is 5 drops per gallon of water (I used tank water), add more drops up to 10 if the fish does not go under after 10 min.
    First put it in a jar with water and shake vigorously to mix well. I used 10 drops for 2 gallons of water.

    Put the fish in. Red streaking immediately set in on his tail fin.

    [​IMG]
     
    Faebinder and SimplyDez like this.
  2. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    After 2 minutes he rolled to his side and at exactly 10 min. he stopped all movement except shallow breathing.

    [​IMG]

    I read that the gelatinous wen material is a little tough to cut so I tried various tools -
    a nail clipper to start, using blunt tweezers to lift the wen away from his eyes:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  3. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    It was proving difficult - the wen sort of slips out as you close the clippers. I tried some flush cutting bonsai nippers. They worked slightly better:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Starting to look good. Every few minutes I put him back in the clove water for 30 sec. or so.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    As I trimmed the larger lumps and sticking out bits of wen, it got harder to get a grip on it.
    I wanted to get more bulk off so I tried I tried some regular scissors, until I simply could not get any more off.
    Maybe a scalpel would have worked, but I was reluctant to try one, fearing it would be too easy for it to slip.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This is what came off:

    [​IMG]

    The actual trimming took about 15 min. (with 2 dips back into the clove water).
    From what I had read there should have been no bleeding, but I certainly saw red streaks in the wen in spots.
    Then it was into a bucket of fresh (tank) water
    with air bubbles. He was upright and swimming again after about 10 min.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    And back home with a handsome new coif! After a few hours the red in both his tail and his wen had subsided almost completely.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    He ate some food at the afternoon feeding, but is not swimming much (as usual!) I will update his progress after a a week, maybe, or if I notice any changes in the meantime.
     
  6. suphi

    suphi Ranchuist

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Location:
    CT
    Excellent thread and photos! I'm not sure it'll help his swimming but should help with vision, and the fish cosmetically looks better with trimmed wen.

    The wen slipped on you because the equipments aren't surgical grade (i.e. not sharp enough), but you still got the job done. I think it was a successful surgery in the end. Now you just have to watch out for infection.
     
  7. eros

    eros Time lost is brain lost

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Location:
    Martinez, CA
    Excellent

    Excellent job with the surgery and the detailed step by step pictures:worship:. Besides using surgical instruments, perhaps another person could have helped you on this surgery. He holds and then you cut- 2 surgeons.

    Thank you for sharing the pictures. I hope he recuperates well.


    **This should be a stickie.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2009
  8. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Thank you. Good point about the instruments - they seemed very sharp, but not surgical. I guess it would make a world of difference.
    I don't think more hands would have helped, though. It would have felt crowded. I was comfortable with using the tweezers with one hand and cutting with the other - being able to feel everything, if you know what I mean.

    It is two days later and he certainly sees better - finds his food fast and his eyes follow me when I walk near the tank.
     
  9. bekko

    bekko artisanal breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Hakipu'u Hawai'i
    You don't need surgical instruments, just a new pair of good (Revlon) cuticle scissors from the pharmacy. It is sort of scary working around the eye with scissors which have a sharp tip. But, the pointed tip helps to get under the wen so it can be cut off cleanly.

    -steve
     
  10. thomasn

    thomasn Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    AZ
    :worship: thanks for the pics. the fish looks really good with his haircut :thumbUp:
     
  11. Veil Gal

    Veil Gal Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Location:
    Elmira, New York
    What about the Plants?

    This surgical posting was very well done and fascinating. I am also intrigued by the potted plants in your tank. What are they and what is the potting medium? I would like to try this in a bare bottom tank. Thank you. And keep us posted on the oranda's recovery.
     
  12. *Ci*

    *Ci* Goldie Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    The plants are potted in glass vases using Eco-complete + homeade clay fertilizer balls. Large stones are placed on the exposed substrate to keep the goldies from picking at it.

    The tank is 6ft (120gal) so you can see that these plants are big!

    The large one on the left in a Crinum Natans, the two in the middle are Cryptocoryne wendtii and the far right are various anubias tied to driftwood. There's also a few Marimo balls.

    All of these plants have been in the tank with the goldies for many years.
    I have 1.5 watts of PC light and I fertilize with the Seachem line and also use Excel for a carbon source.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. HNLim

    HNLim Amateur Goldfish Hobbyist

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Singapore
    Nice "hair job"!
     
  14. Casper

    Casper Guest

    Very informative and nicely done! Your tank looks so clean, I just let the algae grow on the sides/back.

    Also I'm surprised the goldfish don't eat the Marimo balls, aren't they balls of food for them?
     
  15. eros

    eros Time lost is brain lost

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Location:
    Martinez, CA
    >Casper: My goldfishes doesnt eat my Marimo balls but what they do is break it apart and thus, clogging the prefilter.
     
  16. WakinAZ

    WakinAZ Accidental Breeder

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ, USA
    If you trim the wen on an adult oranda with a fully developed wen, will the wen grow back and block the eyes again? In other words, do you have to keep trimming the wen?
     
  17. fish don't sweat

    fish don't sweat Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2009
    I hope not, I have recently trimmed the wens on mine.
     
  18. bekko

    bekko artisanal breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Hakipu'u Hawai'i
    Yes, it usually grows back eventually. But, you may not have to deal with again for a year.

    When the wen completely covers the eyes and the fish has a hard time getting around and eating its health often slowly deteriorates and it may not survive another year. If the eye is only partially obstructed then it will be fine.

    -steve
     
  19. TheTruth

    TheTruth Professional Breeder

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Location:
    ny state
    trimming the wen

    i have been doing this for 30 yrs.get an exato knife and gently lift the wen from the eye.it will pull away.now trim .i usually put the fish on a wet towl.sometimes i justhold the fish by the side of the pond. the wen grows back quickly.fish that are blinded by the wen adjust and still find food if they are healthy
     
  20. nygold

    nygold Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    I have an Oranda with a large dome shaped wen that started to encroach one of it's eyes. It started to affect it feeding. I was putting off this so called surgery but I finally pulled the trigger.
    This was much easier than I thought.
    I held the fish upside down (belly up) half in the water then when the fish calmed down I took a sharp scissor and snip-snip it was done.
    Granted I didn't have much to remove it was less than a 20 second procedure. It's a little scary working so close to it's eye but it worked.
    Thanks guys for the info in this thread.
    My fish will now have a better quality of life because of you guys.
     

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