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When is enough, enough?

Discussion in 'Goldfish Conversation' started by mjfromga, Jan 19, 2016.

  1. mjfromga

    mjfromga Well-Known Member

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    This seems cruel to me TBH. I love fancies, but these fish are so unnaturally built that they can barely move and seem to struggle just to live. Is it ONLY me who feels that there is something not right about extremes like this? Or is this how fish are supposed to be to be considered good?
     
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  2. SallImSayin

    SallImSayin ya Samaki

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    I see what you mean. The fish can barely keep itself up. It is sad.
     
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  3. mjfromga

    mjfromga Well-Known Member

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    The second fish really hurt my heart. He can barely even get off the bottom. Extreme breeding like this can't possibly be helping anything.
     
  4. joe

    joe Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, I do not like these extreme looking fish either but if you look at the standard for short tailed ryukin, then those two fish come very close to the standard.
     
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  5. mjfromga

    mjfromga Well-Known Member

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    Glad to see I'm not the only one. My little Rhonda is a Ryukin and I'd be so hurt if he couldn't even really get off the bottom or breathe properly. Thankfully he's just a dinky cull and he's not bred to these standards. I felt bad for the gold looking Ryukin. Poor guy.
     
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  6. chocky

    chocky Well-Known Member

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    they may not be swimming right or being active as they have been moved to a tank for photos or videos.

    I prefer them to not be so extreme but to each his own
     
  7. mjfromga

    mjfromga Well-Known Member

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    I've seen other fish swimming perfectly fine in those show tanks. Its prudent to assume the fish CAN'T swim correctly. I mean, they're like 90% belly with teensy little fins and no tail to speak of. Actually, only these two "giant" fish on that channel seem to have severe issues moving around. The fish that don't have "giant" in the titles seem mostly okay.

    They are pretty fish, I'm not knocking their coloring or how cute they are, I'm just speaking on the fact that, to be totally frank, the fish look grotesquely deformed. The fact that Joe says this is to standard really spells out what I believe to be a HUGE problem. My Rhonda (a Ryukin cull) clearly swims MUCH WORSE than my Slate, so seemingly if he were an extreme Ryukin, he'd probably be like these two.
     
  8. fantail1

    fantail1 Professional Breeder

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    This is an interesting thread. It contains (at least) two issues that always arise with "fancy" goldfish: personal taste and culling. These fish are highly developed. To some, too highly developed. To others, they are great fish. It is a matter of taste. We British are known as "animal lovers" (or at least, we think we are animal lovers) yet, here we do things that are unacceptable to the majority and we abhor those here or overseas that do what we think is cruel. However, there are different attitudes elsewhere that mean the indigenous population disagree. This is what this thread is about.

    Also, if your fish is a "cull" that means it is a fish that didn't come up to "standard" - whatever that means and immediately you are into the issue of taste again. As for culls generally, don't forget that naturally goldfish lay thousands of eggs because so few will make it to maturity and what we are doing is choosing which ones - as it happens, one with a less round body and a twin tail. How is that right? Surely the ones to select would be carp shaped. Anything more than that is "extreme" surely? In other words, just a matter of taste and sensibilities which vary around the globe.

    Challenging subjects these.....
     
  9. Scifisarah

    Scifisarah Well-Known Member

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    On the flip side, the goldfish is obviously well fed, healthy and has lived a long life to get that large. Can't say that for 99% of the goldfish bred that die from improper care or are fed to something.
     
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  10. Faebinder

    Faebinder Well-Known Member

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    I'm not even sure a heron will eat those two if it spots them in a pond.
     
  11. Gold Digger

    Gold Digger Active Member

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    I think its only cruel if the fish are not kept with other fish that don't share the same handicap or lack of basic care witch clearly is not to case with these fish. Its quite common for large fish to bottom sit when they are moved they. Saying they struggle to live is just false.
     
  12. mjfromga

    mjfromga Well-Known Member

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    If you wish to call that fish healthy, so be it. If you wish to say both fish are struggling just because of where they are, so be it. I won't force people to agree with me, but I'd never stand behind this in a million years. As for my goldfish, trust that if they swam like these (and also seemed to have the breathing problems they have) I'd have thought they were unhealthy and not even gotten them. Keep in mind that at the time of acquisition, I didn't even know that all the fish weren't just "fantails".

    People have bashed me for "supporting" large chain stores by getting fish from there because they feel some type of way about it, and I will stand against supporting "well bred" fish if this is the end result. As another user said, its largely down to preference. I will say this on the back end, often extremely large fish here are given a lot more than just FOOD. The same applies to chickens that are neigh turkey size etc. Its just something that I keep in mind. Not trying to attack anybody that likes this, it just bothers me to see fish that look like this.

    EDIT: I said they SEEM to struggle to live, so yeah, more of an opinion, not a true or false statement. Also, I would stop owning fancy goldfish altogether and get commons before I supported breeding fish to this degree. The ONLY way I would take everything back is if it were proven that the fish could live normally and they seemed to be stressed only because of their location.

    I don't see how that makes a ton of sense by just looking at them, but it's certainly possible as I do see lots of stringy poo, which can mean stress. If that is the case, I will relent. My worries are not how the fish LOOK, but if they are able to live normally and not be constantly stressed because of their own body shape.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
  13. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

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    Hi all,
    I just want to letting all you know that it is totally fine to express your opinion. But different people has different opinion. As a goldfish community, we love both show fish and your pet fish. There is no point of arguing here. PLEASE STOP THIS.
     
  14. mjfromga

    mjfromga Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I see. Request accepted.
     
  15. Ununique

    Ununique Well-Known Member

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    I would think based on its size alone that it is not struggling to survive. It looks to be in some sort of small gallon tank for this video and photos, and thats just for practical reasons. You could put a shark in a small tank and wonder the same things, it just needs more space to swim.
    Also, this is like calling an elephant fat. Some of the goldfish breeds/standards don't value movement in the overall quality, this is no different than dog breeding that focus only on conformation and ignore such things as health and longevity.

    Also, for all we know that botton ryukin could be filled with 10,000 eggs and ready to breed.
     
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  16. Iaidoka

    Iaidoka Well-Known Member

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    I am not into Ryukins but I wouldn't mind owning specimens like these two.
     
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  17. orangecrush

    orangecrush Well-Known Member

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    This could have more to do with over feeding than over breeding.
     
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  18. Fishheadz

    Fishheadz Well-Known Member

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    No argument, by any means, just want to express my personal opinion on the topic.
    I look at these fish, and I think to myself, that an immense great deal of care has been given to these fish, for them to be how they are. A bit extreme, perhaps, but that was most likely the overall goal of whomever's fish these are. Genetic mutations are often accidentally created, but then some are created purposefully(over and over, and over), because they give a certain characteristic. The goldfish world is much like the dog world, what makes a certain breed look the way they do? most likely it has to do with being bred that way. All K9's evolved from the wolf,(just as all goldfish evolved from the Crucian Carp) but yet we have such tiny creatures as Chihuahua's, and such large breeds like Mastiffs(much like how there are Ryukin & Hibuna). Why? because, that is what somebody wanted, and over time actually created, by selectively breeding this breed with that breed, and so on, until the desired breed had been achieved.

    To assume that these fish are unhealthy, struggling, or suffering is just that, an assumption, and we all know when you assume, you make an ass of you and me. It is my thought that just because one breeder/keeper prefers to breed/keep Schnauzers vs. Dobermans, or Commons vs. Fancies, it doesn't make them less of a breeder/keeper, they are just focused on what THEY enjoy, which in all honesty, is the way that it should be.

    Personally, I don't care for Chihuahuas, or Dobermans, so I don't keep those breeds. But on the same note, I don't go around touting that Chihuahuas struggle, or suffer due to their size or stature,(even if I truly believe the breed is inferior). It is simply the end result of what someone wanted, whom took the time to create the breed. It's really the same with goldfish, I don't really care for the characteristics of Ryukins, so I don't keep Ryukins.

    Bottom line, at the end of the day, do or keep what YOU enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  19. small_ranchu

    small_ranchu Admin Staff Member

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    Agree..

     
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  20. orangecrush

    orangecrush Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Fred for your above post, and in response to your Chihuahua comment, I unfortunately rescued one of those little piss bags and now he's living in my house with my other five dogs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
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