How to select SVR

[King_oF_Ranchu]

I am currently writing an article regarding how to select side-view ranchu base on my knowledge and experience in Thai Ranchu Society. I'll post them here when i done.

[Ajno]

Would you mind doing some on selecting other fish as well? You do have an eye for nice fish:worship: Thanks buddy!

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Going into deep detail will need a help from demdamdemekins, especially Dorsal fins GF. I only have novice's knowledge on them. We'll see, but first let's me finish the article on SVR first

[small_ranchu]

Thanks Paul... :)

[King_oF_Ranchu]

NP, Fred! I'll do my best.

[sweetshannon]

I can't wait for the article. For now, I buy what I think is cute. Not too advanced, I know!

[Jed]

I can't wait for the article. For now, I buy what I think is cute. Not too advanced, I know!

I try to look for nice smooth backs and tail tucks, but that face BETTER be CUTE. lol

[Ajno]

I try to look for nice smooth backs and tail tucks, but that face BETTER be CUTE. lol

Me too, tuck and tail angle, I just started looking at penducle thickness recently.

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Well...basically, i'll just try to explain what i have read in couple websites and discussion with some Thai Breeder. So mostly i am saying about the Bloodline and type of ranchu. Their original. NOthing Fancy. I focus on Japanese Bloodline and how to look at them.*Base on my knowledge* So after posting, you can also give suggestion or comment.

[small_ranchu]

I am pretty serious on this issue :) . I took a class in how to choose fish at MAKC show and going through Asian web site to study how to pick ranchu. Am I crazy? lol For selection part, I will leave it to Paul.

I need to learn Japanese, Chinese and Thai first :(

[johnatoranchu]

Well...basically, i'll just try to explain what i have read in couple websites and discussion with some Thai Breeder. So mostly i am saying about the Bloodline and type of ranchu. Their original. NOthing Fancy. I focus on Japanese Bloodline and how to look at them.*Base on my knowledge* So after posting, you can also give suggestion or comment.

To focus on "side view Ranchu" and "Japanese Bloodline" in the same post seems alien to me. Real Ranchu are bred to be admired from above. Peduncle and tail shoulders are the most difficult characteristics of the Ranchu to perfect but both those requirements are lost/unnecessary on Ranchu (normally just commercial) produced to be viewed from the side.
John

[King_oF_Ranchu]

We'll discuss about it after i post my article which base from many forum and my discussion with many Thai Ranchu breeder. Just my understanding which i would like to share with all expert here in this forum. Right or Wrong, please comment.

[afertuna]

To focus on "side view Ranchu" and "Japanese Bloodline" in the same post seems alien to me. Real Ranchu are bred to be admired from above. Peduncle and tail shoulders are the most difficult characteristics of the Ranchu to perfect but both those requirements are lost/unnecessary on Ranchu (normally just commercial) produced to be viewed from the side.
John


When the fish are being judged though arent they are judged from the side and the top? I know after the last show Peter spent a good 45 min talking about having to view ranchu from both side and top and trying to find the best confirmation of both. Is this something that we as goldfish people need to push judging ranchu into two or three catagories? Top view, side view and tail type?(short,long,broadtail)Next question how does one determan what you have is top or a side view?I am finding it very hard to find any good ranchu anymore they all seem to be lionchu's.........even just as hard to find a good Lionhead. the peduncles are always week and the tails are mainly connected to the body not the perduncle itself and most lack the tail tuck they just straighten out like eggfish.PLease understand I dont know much about ranchus I have one ranchu and two lions. I do show them and they generally do well but they are small and young.I would like to have three or four of each and breed for show for fun. Here in Portlands show it is inevitable a ranchu will make it to the top three. LOL

[bekko]

It is a shame that side view ranchu and Japanese top-view ranchu are both called "ranchu". It causes a lot of confusion. Many people and some judges are slow to realize they are completely separate varieties. It is apples and oranges so they cannot be judged together at a show.

The distinguishing characteristic to separate side-view ranchu and lionheads is the angle of the tail. SVR have an acute angle at the tail tuck. Lionheads have an obtuse angle and little tail tuck. The orientation of the tail itself is similar for both varieties; and without that proper orientation the fish cannot swim well. So, the SVR must have a high arched back to create that acute angle at the tail tuck. The lionhead must have a relatively flat back to create the obtuse angle.

-steve

[cowiche ponder]

Will be looking forward to the article. Thanks for doing the work..

Now to be so bold to ask... can line drawings be supplied with the article too :worship::worship: Words are good, pictures just help the inexperienced learn more. Maybe line drawings can be made in something like photoshop from real pictures so as to not identify whose fish as to not step on toes? Or would dealers be willing to submit pictures of fish showing the good and the bad..

If one doesn't ask one will never get :)

[King_oF_Ranchu]

It is a shame that side view ranchu and Japanese top-view ranchu are both called "ranchu". It causes a lot of confusion. Many people and some judges are slow to realize they are completely separate varieties. It is apples and oranges so they cannot be judged together at a show.

The distinguishing characteristic to separate side-view ranchu and lionheads is the angle of the tail. SVR have an acute angle at the tail tuck. Lionheads have an obtuse angle and little tail tuck. The orientation of the tail itself is similar for both varieties; and without that proper orientation the fish cannot swim well. So, the SVR must have a high arched back to create that acute angle at the tail tuck. The lionhead must have a relatively flat back to create the obtuse angle.

-steve

For international, Yes, they're called the same as Ranchu. However, in my country, Thailand, called differently. Only Top-viewed ranchu called "ranchu" and those side-view call lionhead; Japanese Lionhead, Mixed Lionhead, and Chinese Lionhead. I've been working and discuss with thai breeder and supplier a lot. And the first conversation were very confusing since most of importion i have were from International resource. This is why i just want to share this information with other people here in Thai goldfish community point of view. This article might have some fault on Time line since my knowledge are not accurate.

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Will be looking forward to the article. Thanks for doing the work..

Now to be so bold to ask... can line drawings be supplied with the article too :worship::worship: Words are good, pictures just help the inexperienced learn more. Maybe line drawings can be made in something like photoshop from real pictures so as to not identify whose fish as to not step on toes? Or would dealers be willing to submit pictures of fish showing the good and the bad..

If one doesn't ask one will never get :)

Yes, definitly!! It is very hard to explain the different without the picture. I am gathering the source and some picture from different sites and my own picture. This article might take me a while to finish, coz i havent touch it for couple week now, since i have my new shipment and working on video and picture. Now i will finish it and hope i can post them by Jan 2009.

After finish, i hope i can get feedback and correction for my own further knowledge.

[johnatoranchu]

When the fish are being judged though arent they are judged from the side and the top? I know after the last show Peter spent a good 45 min talking about having to view ranchu from both side and top and trying to find the best confirmation of both. Is this something that we as goldfish people need to push judging ranchu into two or three catagories? Top view, side view and tail type?(short,long,broadtail)Next question how does one determan what you have is top or a side view?I am finding it very hard to find any good ranchu anymore they all seem to be lionchu's.........even just as hard to find a good Lionhead. the peduncles are always week and the tails are mainly connected to the body not the perduncle itself and most lack the tail tuck they just straighten out like eggfish.PLease understand I dont know much about ranchus I have one ranchu and two lions. I do show them and they generally do well but they are small and young.I would like to have three or four of each and breed for show for fun. Here in Portlands show it is inevitable a ranchu will make it to the top three. LOL

Sorry - don't know your name. In most "Western" shows I guess all goldfish are judged mainly from the side regardless of variety as they are exhibited in aquariums and I don't know how Ranchu are judged in Thailand but I would guess that at the serious "specialist" shows judging Ranchu would be the same as in Japan and all the Ranchu would be "top view" Ranchu. I must admit that I have been keeping Ranchu seriously for over 25 years but had never heard of the description "side view" Ranchu until 2001 when I was invited to attend Gary Hater's Breeders' Social for the first time. At the risk of upsetting forum members I consider that "top view" Ranchu are what serious Ranchu enthusiasts try to produce whereas "side view" are more "commercial" as they are much easier to produce. I would however be the first to admit that "side view" actually look better in aquariums than "top view" so I guess it's really about what the individual wants. To return to Ranchu judging and shows in Japan.
There are normally 3 or sometimes 4 classes -
Tosai - for current year fish
Nisai - for fish bred the previous year and
Oya - for the rest.
Sometimes there are 2 classes for tosai, one class for "big" tosai - born March/April and the other for "small" tosai - born May or later.
All the fish in each class are placed in a pond and swim together.
First judging is to judge how the fish swims. If its swim line is unacceptable it stays in the pond and takes no further part in the competition. If swim line is OK it is transferred to be judged into general categories of "quality" by a group of 5/6 "junior" judges (I was honoured by being invited to act as one of the junior judging team in Yokohama in 2002) who score each fish, normally 1, 2 or 3 with 3 being the highest mark. The judges' scores are then added together, e.g. if there are 5 judges then the highest score achievable is 15. This judging takes place from the top only although if you are alert you could get a glimpse of the side profile as the fish is transferred from the carrying bucket to the judging bowl. After this assessment the Ranchu are placed in separate ponds depending on the score achieved, for example all those scoring 15 would go into one pond, those scoring 13/14 in another, those scoring 11/12 in another and so on.
Once this has been completed the senior judge takes over. He makes a cursory inspection of all those Ranchu in the ponds just to make sure that the "junior" judges haven't made any mistakes with their initial assessment and will "promote" any fish if he thinks fit. The fish which scored 15 (plus those which scored 13/14 if few fish scored 15) are then transferred to the senior judge's judging bowls where they are assessed by the senior judge MAINLY from above but he will also handle them to make sure bodies are firm and check them from the side and indeed from underneath. Once the senior judge has decided on his placings the Ranchu are then placed in order of the award they have obtained in white enamel bowls, normally two fish per bowl, to be viewed by exhibitors and general public. The senior judge, at least in my experience, places the first 15 or so in each class, the remainder of the placings are left to the "junior" team. Members of the public/fellow exhibitors only see the Ranchu from above.
John

[bigbettadan]

I agree with John. I am relatively new to the TVR hobby(thanks Gary) but feel we need to promote the TVR hobby here in the states. Thats my goal.

Dan

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Ok....Im do not want to get into with TVR that much as this point. Let's focus on SVR Bloodline or types; Japanese bloodline SVR, Mixed SVR, and Hybrid SVR.
I'll show you the different of these 3 different fish. And i hope you can see the different between those 3 bloodline or types.

Japanese Bloodline SVR;
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Dec%2015/DSC08297.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/Dec%2015/TF03005.jpg

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Mixed SVR;
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/JM01001A.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/TB03005.jpg

Hybrid SVR;
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/RT005A.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk113/xxxxxxxxxxxx/RT006A.jpg

I believe that all of ranchu are evolve from Chinese lionhead by Japanese -norms referring from Greet Copper article on Rafflesgold.com that it came to Japan in Meiji period (1870-1885).

Sometime in between, i believe that lionhead/ranchu had spread to Thailand. Thai breeder has developed and accomplished its side-viewed and gave it a name of Japanese Bloodline Side-viewed ranchu to the fish as credit to Japanese norms.

Time passed, Thai breeders has developed and cross breed SVR with Today Japanese TVR to help promote bloodline on their stock and also TVR body structure; Head, Wen, Body, and Tails. Some breeder has mixed them with Chinese Lionhead as survival rate are higher for commercial fish.

Best Regard,
Paul xxxxxxxxxxxx.com

[bigbettadan]

IMO good TVR look good from the side as well. But not the other way around in some cases. I do feel to really understand the Japanese "art" of ranchu, it is to be viewed from above.......

The Japanese line ranchu Paul just imported have very nice top view features(I bought a pair) and can be used in a TVR breeding program...

Dan

[cowiche ponder]

"Sorry - don't know your name. In most "Western" shows I guess all goldfish are judged mainly from the top regardless of variety as they are exhibited in aquariums"

John I've been in the hobby a VERY short time with fancy goldies. Learning a lot on a koi site :D with goldie fanciers and judges. The only criteria I had heard about in judging was from the side view. The judge in fact wrote a bunch of articles on that site on how to choose many of the fancy varieties including Ranchu.
I hadn't heard of the TVR until I came across Bekko's site in Hawaii when I was looking fow Wakins!

[bigbettadan]

Yes, in the USA, the art of ranchu is still in it's infant stages. But change is coming...........

Dan

[bekko]

Dan, somewhere on the web there are side-view photos of some AJRS winners. The fish were being held in the hand when the photo was snapped. I can't find the site again right now, but will continue to look. Anyway, a few of these fish look good from the side, but others look like crap. On some of them the back is pretty flat and then slopes off quickly just in front of the tail. I know fish with this shape can swim well and from the top view the flat back is not apparent. However, a side-view ranchu that looked like that wouldn't make it past the first cull. Nonetheless, a TVR with a nice back will sell much more quickly than one with a flat back.

-steve

[johnatoranchu]

"Sorry - don't know your name. In most "Western" shows I guess all goldfish are judged mainly from the top regardless of variety as they are exhibited in aquariums"

John I've been in the hobby a VERY short time with fancy goldies. Learning a lot on a koi site :D with goldie fanciers and judges. The only criteria I had heard about in judging was from the side view. The judge in fact wrote a bunch of articles on that site on how to choose many of the fancy varieties including Ranchu.
I hadn't heard of the TVR until I came across Bekko's site in Hawaii when I was looking fow Wakins!
Hi Cowiche Ponder! - wish I knew your first name - it makes replying easier!! If I was the site's Administrator I would insist that everybody signed off their postings with their first name!!! That's me being a pompous Brit I guess.
Anyway, welcome to the exciting world of the Goldfish. Firstly I must correct my earlier post in this thread (now edited) in that I originally said that in most "western" shows goldfish were judges mainly from the top regardless of variety as they were exhibited in aquariums. This is of course a load of nonsense - as Goldfish are normally exhibited in aquariums they are of course normally JUDGED FROM THE SIDE. A good judge however will always take a look at the exhibits from above as part of judging for it's amazing how often fancy goldfish have curved bodies, that is the head and tail are not in a straight line. Neither Koi sites nor general fish keeping sites are ideal sites to learn about goldfish. Goldfish are a very specialist subject. Members of this site clearly have a great deal of knowledge but unfortunately this in itself can cause problems to a "beginner" in that a relatively simply question can generate contradictory opinions, all of which can be correct! I hope I am not guilty of "talking down" to you but if you are a real (but serious) beginner can I suggest that you buy the book "FANCY GOLDFISH. A COMPLETE GUIDE TO CARE AND COLLECTING" by American authors Dr. Erik L Johnson and Richard E Hess; published by Weatherhill. In my view it's the best Goldfish book ever written and will give you an informative and generally accurate insight into our hobby and a sound base from which to start your learning. Gary Hater (Cincy Ranchu, or perhaps a better user name might be the Cincinnati Kid!) bought it for me when I was at one of his Breeders' Socials in Cincinnati and I must have read it from cover to cover 3 or 4 times on the journey home to London and never before had the journey time passed so quickly.
John

[bigbettadan]

CP....... Whats with the fuzzy lop? Here is my other hobby...

www.aslanrabbitry.com

Steve- I see what you are saying, but to me the shorter body high back ranchu cannot swim properly, and should not be favored over a longer, flatter backed ranchu. I like softball bodies, on my ryukins....:yess:

[cowiche ponder]

CP....... Whats with the fuzzy lop? Here is my other hobby...

www.aslanrabbitry.com



Not a fuzzy..about 3.5 week old tri mini lop :)

My web page is still a work in progress... www.sweetbriar-rabbits.com

[Bucks Koi]

I am currently writing an article regarding how to select side-view ranchu base on my knowledge and experience in Thai Ranchu Society. I'll post them here when i done.

Hey King Paul
When is your Article going to be done?
Patrick

[thomasn]

CP....... Whats with the fuzzy lop? Here is my other hobby...

www.aslanrabbitry.com (http://www.aslanrabbitry.com)

Steve- I see what you are saying, but to me the shorter body high back ranchu cannot swim properly, and should not be favored over a longer, flatter backed ranchu. I like softball bodies, on my ryukins....:yess:

Those rabbits are soooooo CUTE.

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Hey King Paul
When is your Article going to be done?
Patrick

Maybe when i sold all my fish in showroom....lol :lair:

[Ranchumaniax]

Admin,

When will my article be post on here?