Twisted and turned Operculum

[Cincy Ranchu]

All,

I t seems to me that from time to time we see fish at the age of 4 to6 months get a twisted or turned operculum. I am curious if anyone sees a correlation with water quality or genetics, like in-breeding disfunction.
For years thios trait have been common in ryukin, but still occurs in Veiltails and Bristol and even an occasional pearlsclae, what say you! I would enjoy your opinions.

THX GH:youtellme::exact::youtellme:

[Veil Gal]

Gary, and all, I have seen turned operculum show up in spawns from normal parents in good water quality--which would lead me to think it is a genetic trait. However, I was given some fry (butterflies) from another breeder. I split the fish up between a 55 gallon aquarium and an outdoor 50 gallon rubbermaid tub. The fish that were outside developed curled operculum. This tub is a green water tub with only morning sun. This tub also houses some shubunkin fry and a veiltail and a telescope. I only changed water in this outdoor tub once a week. Everyone has normal gills, except these two butterflies (the largest fish in the tub.) Same environmental conditions. I have seen fish that were lovely and kept in great water conditions develop the trait, when their siblings did not. Water parameters were "perfect."
It is extremely disappointing as it is an ugly looking defect, and for most small time breeders, it is not worth keeping such a fish as a breeder. All the work involved in raising a spawn, and not knowing if this trait will be a dominant one in the fry.:youtellme: Gary, I am SO sorry I could not attend this year's social. I would love to hear from you about the highlights!

[sc569]

I had this problem in some of my early spawns. I culled intensively and never bred from fish that had this.

I have not seen this trait in about 2 generations now.

It is possible that soft water or low calcium or low carbonates are partly responsible. I alway have crushed coral in the water now - even the water that is degassing. I am guessing that this is a prevention that may or may not be effective. However, since it is working, I will keep using the crushed coral.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I had this problem in some of my early spawns. I culled intensively and never bred from fish that had this.

I have not seen this trait in about 2 generations now.

It is possible that soft water or low calcium or low carbonates are partly responsible. I alway have crushed coral in the water now - even the water that is degassing. I am guessing that this is a prevention that may or may not be effective. However, since it is working, I will keep using the crushed coral.

Crushed coral is used to prevent a Calcium defficiency? Seems that Cincinnati extremely hard water that is lime softened would not be calcium defficient.
Back in th 80's I bought a spawn of Japanese ryukin from Foster and he was also raising a differnt spawn from the same parents. I am on City water and he is on well water. Within a week of each other we both had the same curled and short operculums develop. The fault was corrected by doing an outcross to a different line of Ryukin. It appears in low numbers some of the time, but in line bred fish it often turns up in many fish in the spawn, but it is never from birth, the flaw always deveops at about four to six months as the fish are starting to mature. Also, curled operculum and short operculum may be different.
Curious if anyone has taken a beautiful fish with a turned operculum and bred it to a non related line or if everyone is just throwing that fish away?

Streamson, it is interesting about calcium as this could possibly be fixed as you have done or with a feed additive, such as calcium carbonate. I feel an experiment by a group of people could be helpful. Seems that an outcross at the F4 generation vs. a line cross could explain the issue if anybody has the room. Parker claims that this trait is less prominant in the UK, but we all know they do an extreme amount of inbreeding, and the trait does show up in straight line bred Bristols that are about F4 or F5 but not as bad as Ryukin & Butterflies which are famous for this action...

[afnaveils]

I have observed fish with the soft edge of the operculum curved outwards in Bristols. I've also observed concave gill plate in the BEPs. However, I have not given a thought about these problems being genetic or not. I think they are genetic.

[bekko]

I think there is a genetic component and one or more environmental components. Some goldfish varieties are more prone to this problem than others. This also happens in many different species of cultivated fish even when wild parents are used. However, you never find a fish in the wild with curled operculum. There are a million theories about what causes it. A friend of mine has experimental data showing it can be caused by a vitamin C deficiency. But, enhancing the vitamin C level in the diet will not necessairly prevent it from happening so there must be other things going on.

-steve

[Cincy Ranchu]

Steve,

Have you ever tred to bred a cool fish that had a curved operculum and outcross it as a means to remove the fault?

[orandablue]

Hi guys. I was about to post this same question! I just took a really good look(culling) at my 1 1/2 month old ryukin/chocolate pom pon fry and MF almost every one out of 20 fry, have some little flip going on on one side of their head! I was afraid their was a slight head spine defect and eventually their head would twist as this happened to one of my ryukin fry earlier but did not show till about 2 months, or i just did'nt catch it. This curling in is not in the "brown" fry but all in the calico ryukin colors. (the female was the chocolate the male the ryukin) So is it the ryukins "fault"!? and if you breed two ryukins you still have this possibility? I thought mixing different fish types would make a healthier fish with a stronger body!! LOL this sucks. Cincy Rancher I have a gorgeous ryukin fry with blue eyes that a think is curling. I feel your pain. also my curls are only on one side. my tiger striped ryukin is curling to. and he is very small like 6 weeks. Should we even give these fish to people?? do they have to be culled?

[bekko]

We call curled gill operculum a deformity. The Chinese call it a characteristic. Not many westerners like this characteristic, but it should be symmetrical on both sides.

My hunch is that you could breed a fish with curled gill operculum, or even breed two fish with curled gill together, and the percentage of offspring with curled gill would be about average for that variety. However, I've never had the guts to try it. You go first.

-steve

[Veil Gal]

I bred a magnificent veiltail female to her brother. These veiltails were the result of an outcross of two very good lines, and from a spawn with an above average amount of superior fry.
The female did not express the curled gill trait until after she spawned ; (
The male has normal gills. The resulting fry, while lovely in many respects, developed the curled gill covers over time. EXTREMELY disappointing. I would say 80% of the fry I grew out had the trait. I ended up with only one keeper out of that spawn:cry:only

[Cincy Ranchu]

Well,

We may have multiple things going on here. It seems to me some of us are breeding like fishes ( same body type) and getting this effect, while other are line breeding and seeing this effect, too wierd. It seemsthat in some cases the turned operculum could be from two similiar body types in which the trait ios located on different genes thus causing the effect, while others have in-bred a line too long and had similiar result.

Then we have Steve's recognition that it could be environmental meaning that the membrane/muscle holding the plates in-place are destroyed by high bacterial counts or ammonia, or even a swing in calcium concentartion leading to a defficiency ( Streamson).

Ok, too many choices, I can only take a wonderful fish to a related fish and observe some offspring. Who is going to measure calcium fluX? Any takers on bacterial counts or ammonia concentration over the life of a spawn?:youtellme:

This could be fun!

GH

[orandablue]

The oranda pom pons turned out fine. same conditions. I still think the ryukin carried a genetic "flaw" that finally expressed when i mixed it with the pom pon genes. I want to try him,he is a looker, with another ryukin. WAIT!!! do i have time for this!!!>:)

[Cincy Ranchu]

Any pics? Is he Japanese ? I have a giant female F-1 whose parents were from Steve Frowine at Neoclassic Ranchu