blue bubble eye from Orandablue's post at BEP

[bwleung]

Orandablue's post blue bubble eye

Hi Orandablue,


Answers to your questions in a thread of its own and not to taint blue phoenix thread, that thread is very important.
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I am very excited that i just found a blue bubble eye! I read something on line about them being a make of phoenix eggfish and a white bubble eye. I am wondering if anyone knows if this is true.

A:No, not true. Assuming your bubble eye is a blue metallic and not a blue nacreous (calico), my thoughts are that blue bubble eye is a simple recessive from wild bronze green bubble eye. Crossing a white bubble eye (if there is one, pretty rare to find a red and white bubble eyes, let alone a pure white one only) with a blue phoenix will most likely result in bronze or orange coloured offsprings. The white is a dominant depigment factor (ie, stripping the red or orange pigments, while the blue is a recessive lacking yellow. You add the two together, the dominance in white is 'watered down', leaving the fish showing their yellow and black, ie, bronze, and the readiness to depigment character, ie, from the white parent will mean they go orange in the end if they don't stay bronze green.

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I would Like to pull the phoenix genes back out if this is the case.(or at least make more blue bubble eyes) Any suggestions as what to pair with a blue bubble eye?

A: No phoenix in blue bubble eye as discussed. If you only can find one blue bubble eye only and wants to breed a line of blue bubble eye before you venture outcrossing such rare characters and to make mutts, you should breed it with bronze bubble eyes. Reason is although all the frys will be bronze in the F1 generation, by breeding these frys back with the blue bubble eye parent, you should get up to 50% blue bubble eyes. If you breed the F1 frys with each other, you get 25% blue and 75% bronze green (excluding some may depigment later on). It is unlikely the blue metallic bubble eye or the bronze bubble eye you find to pair with is pure, (ie, do not depigment later on in their lives), so some of the frys are very likely to depigment.

Note, there are blue bubble eyes in China (both dorsal-less and dorsalled verieties), they are rare but not as rare as Blue egg phoenix. AS you are in the US, you should save this blue bubble eye line and not outcross with non-bubble eyes until you got a sustainable populations to waste in making mutts.

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Also what do a black fish and "chinese blue" fish make? thanks

A: If you mean a black Moor with a Chinese Blue (dark blue metallic), you most likely get all wild green bronze with some depigmenting to orange. Note, none of the frys will have telescope eyes. The intensity of black in black moor which occurs 3-5 months after birth, turning from wild bronze to black as the black pigments intensify will not occur with these frys when mix with China blue metallics. The blue, needless to say, as recessive will be overpowered. Any black in the frys will disappear as they depigment from wild green bronze to orange.

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I am also wondering how the eyes will work out with say a shukin/bubble eye cross!?

A: Most likely, majority of the frys will have no effect, ie, normal eyes, some may have a sac like whitish flesh underneath the eye, looking more like a sore/whitish wound/swell. At best, some will have a small sac called Toad Head, a variety of goldfish in China. The metallic blue may not hold as the bubble eye blue may not be the same type of blue metallics as Shukins. Shukins are technically a blue line from the blue-brown heritage.

Another problem you may also find is that the frys' backs will show stronger traces of remnant dorsals than either parents of this corss. Bubble eyes tend to manifest dorsals in their backs and they are not as pure in being 'dorsal-less' as shukins. Shukins also can have such throw backs. Combining the two will likely increase this 'bad back' character and you end up with many crappy back frys with little deformed dorsals or bad curved or bent backs.

These are my thougths.

Kind regards,

Bill

[afertuna]

I agree that you should breed the blue bubbles for now. The bubble eye cross for the BEP wouldnt be the best cross in my opinion but as a blue bubble eye they are great. I have not seen Blues available here and all I have are calico and red bubbles. I have yet to get any of mine to spawn.If you get fry let us know
Allen

[johnatoranchu]

I guess we must never be too dogmatic when it comes to Goldfish genetics as things seem to happen almost randomly/spontaneously all too often. I was always taught that telescopic eye genes were recessive and therefore it was easy to use a Moor in a breeding programme and eliminate the "eye" gene within a couple of generations but in reality that is not the case. Calico lines, and here I'm talking about pure bred lines of calicos, notably Bristol Shubunkins, Veiltails and Fantails with known lineage over many, many generations, suddenly produce telescopic eyed fish - sometimes in small numbers and sometimes, even more bewildering, just one in a thousand or more fry. Some years ago I crossed one of my own metallic Veiltails with a Jikin which I had personally imported from Japan and there were two telescopes in the spawning.
Many years ago I kept Bubble-eyes for a short time and the experimental spawnings I did then indicated that the bubble-eye characteristic was fully dominant with every youngster developing bubbles of acceptable size, albeit slightly smaller bubbles than on the Bubble-Eye parent.
John

[bekko]

Does this look familiar John.... and Gary ?

http://www.raingarden.us/4492a.JPG

-steve

[johnatoranchu]

Does this look familiar John.... and Gary ?

http://www.raingarden.us/4492a.JPG

-steve

Sure does - as my all time favourite air hostess said when our small plane landed at Cincinnati - "Take care with the overhead lockers - "SHIFT" happens.
John

[afertuna]

John I have had no luck in breeding Bubbles are there any tips? I have a ton of nice calicos and One red. A few years ago I bought some nice black and whites from Tommy at a show. They started developing bubbles everywhere on their sides the tail. ect ect I put them all down.

[johnatoranchu]

John I have had no luck in breeding Bubbles are there any tips? I have a ton of nice calicos and One red. A few years ago I bought some nice black and whites from Tommy at a show. They started developing bubbles everywhere on their sides the tail. ect ect I put them all down.

Not really. In my experience they just had to be treated the same as any other variety. I had mine in the late 70's and early 80's, indeed I had 3 of the first 4 black Bubble-Eyes ever to be imported into the UK. Whenever we had informal discussions at Goldfish Society of Great Britain's meetings in those days, a regular topic was "why is it that fabulously coloured calicos imported from Asia, just Japan and China in those days I believe, only produce muddy coloured specimens when we spawn them?" This is a favourite topic even now! At that time, as mentioned previously, the belief here was that calico colours could be improved by crossing calicos with Moors. I guess I was rather niaive then but imported calico Bubble- Eyes always had magnificent coloration so on seeing these black Bubble-Eyes I deduced that there were black versions of every variety of goldfish in China and Japan and that was how they produced such wonderfully coloured calicos - by crossing calicos with blacks. Daft, I guess but hey my hair was black then too. I tried some experiments and spawned the black Bubble-Eyes together. Their babes were dark "uncoloured" rather than true black. I then crossed the black Bubbles with various calicos and discovered how dominant the bubble-eye gene was but their calico offspring had little colour and such colour as they did have faded after 6 months or so.
Sorry, I've gone off at a tangent and haven't answered your question. Treat them the same as other varieties you breed. I don't know how many you have but sometimes I've found that a group of fish won't spawn but split the group into 2 pairs or one female and two males and they do. If all else fails try this but don't use the metallic red in your selections, that fish needs another red Bubble!
I never encountered bubbles "everywhere" but several of my Bubbles did develop lock jaw. Other breeders at the same time also had this trait in their stock but I don't know if it is the same today. I will be seeing a Bubble-Eye breeder on Saturday and I'll try and remember to ask him and report back.
John

[Virginia ranchu]

Hi Steve,

I've been meaning to post some pics of my "Bristol telescopes". These were very unexpected, but there were several like this in the spawn.

Cheers,

Rob

[Virginia ranchu]

BTW...

That is an attractive fish. I hope you plan to keep it!

Rob

[bekko]

I hope you plan to keep it!I already have too many projects. That one and several like it are for sale on my web site. I believe the name for a long single-tail telescope is "willow".

-steve

[orandablue]

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/bluebubble5.jpg

[orandablue]

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/blackbubble2.jpg

[orandablue]

the blue is a male and chasing already. The black is my only other bubble and female I think. However the blue does not fancy the black!?? So an all white dorsal-less fish would not produce phoenix blue?? or a white bubble? and black and blue make bronze.

[orandablue]

sorry i am learning to post picshttp://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/bluebubble4.jpghttp://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/fishhead_gab/waterbubbleeye2.jpg

[bwleung]

Hi Orandablue,

“So an all white dorsal-less fish would not produce phoenix blue?? or a white bubble? and black and blue make bronze.”
__________________

In brief, as discussed:

No, blue bubble eye is not a product of mixing phoenix with white bubble eye.

White bubbles can’t be produced by mixing a white dorsal-less fish with a bubble eye.


Crossing your black bubble with your blue bubble will create wild bronze babies, though I really suspect they will then depigment to orange babies.

My reasons are:
Your blue bubble is not a pure blue metallic even though it is a blue metallic. It shows patches of brown. Effectively, it is a piebald. One of the parents of this fish must have been an orange bubble eye, with the depigment gene. If your photos are not over-exposed, your bubble appears to be de-pigmenting, showing a very white tummy already but a darken purplish blue back, ie, intensification of blue to purplish while the tummy is white. Your fish may stay in this condition or may eventually turn yellowish white (where the purplish blue patches are) with orange patches (where the brown patches are currently are). Nevertheless, it still has the blue recessive gene even if it depigments to white and orange completely.

If blue metallic bubble eyes are really, really rare in the US (put it this way, I haven’t seen one in Australia), may I suggest if you are not a professional goldfish breeder to lend your fish to someone like Harris (harzan) in Hawaii or John (johnatoranchu) in the US. They will know how to maintain this line and give you back your fish along with some of the blue frys after they get this line going in the US. Otherwise this chance mutation could be lost forever. Credits to you for spotting it.

No, mixing with the black bubble eye will not help you. The black bubble eye is a fish where the process of depigmentation has been halted (stuck in the black phase before it goes orange), and as your blue bubble fish already seems to be depigmenting, crossing the two will most likely result in orange bubbles (each parent provide a set of depigment genes to the frys, so they go orange, as the bronze will dominate over the recessive blue). Best is to cross your blue bubble with a bronze bubble, so as to increase the genes for non-depigmentation in the frys, then use these frys to cross back to your blue bubble parent when they grow up, 50% of the babies from this parent-children cross should then be blue metallic (provided they don’t depigment. That is they are born blue).

Whatever you do, look after your blue bubble well. Don’t lose this blue fish (trait), I hope you find a pair of blue metallic bubble eyes. It will be a great loss if this colour mutation is lost in the US.

As an example: I did not recognise leather goldfish more than 15 years ago when I first saw some and purchased one. It took me this long to find some more again. So, if you lose your blue bubble, you may not see another blue bubble for a long, long time. Best health to your blue bubble.

Best regards,

Bill

[orandablue]

I appreciate the time you have saved me. I am still not sure how the "white" genetics in fish work. I found this blue in a store that came in as a panda telescope or something!? I am trying to get another order of this mishap. But yes you are right in that this fish could turn bronze or orange. Belly is white but so are my blue orandas. The purple in its scale is stronger so might turn bronze it looks like? I really want to work on a super long veil like tail on it. thus [Shukin] *I have never seen a bronze bubble eye. I think they would be interesting in themselves. However I could try a bronze lionhead?? If I am lucky I will get to try a few different things with this guy.(still trying to find another blue female) Any suggest. still appreciated. The black bubble is sooooo velvety but is a freak, nothing goes near it. I also have bronze orandas that carry the same metallic pied blue gene, I bred this spring. Those I hope to make phoenix blue color with.

[bekko]

One of the parents of this fish must have been an orange bubble eye, with the depigment gene.

Probably not Bill. If you cross two of these blue pied fish you will get blue pied offspring and solid bronze/brown offspring. If you raise enough of them, you can find a few which do not have brown (underlying red). It seems to be about the same odds as finding all-white offspring in in any cross of red/white metallics. However, the vast majority of the offspring from these non-pied parents will be pied; just as red reappears when you cross two white metallic fish. Any of the blue pied fish can demelanize later in life, but not all will. The blue will become a dirty white and the brown will become a weak red.

-steve

[bwleung]

thanks for response and info.
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I appreciate the time you have saved me. I am still not sure how the "white" genetics in fish work.

A: Oranda Blue, Typing in a rush, excuse my expression errors. Goldfish contain only three colour pigments, red, yellow and black. ‘Silver’ reflecting tissue in the scale is not a pigment but deposition of waste in the form of crystal as goldfish is lower order animals that do not rid of its waste well. The white comes from stripping all three colour pigments ie, depigmentation as its most dominant form, leaving the silver tissue on its own, no black, yellow or red. You will find that some red and white goldfish steadily lose its red to eventually become all white, as the depigmentation continues to strip out the red.

I found this blue in a store that came in as a panda telescope or something!? I am trying to get another order of this mishap.

A: A blue metallic bubble in a panda telescope shipment, how odd! Hope you find another one.

But yes you are right in that this fish could turn bronze or orange. Belly is white but so are my blue orandas. The purple in its scale is stronger so might turn bronze it looks like? I really want to work on a super long veil like tail on it. thus [Shukin]

A: There’s a difference. The back of your bubble eye shows a purplish bleu tint instead of blue, the white is very white on the abdomen even below the lateral line, too high for the white to be normal blue metallic. To me, your blue metallic bubble appears to be depigmenting, so intensify the blue on back to purplish blue and white tummy.

No, the purplish blue colour will turn yellowish white, ie, such as the back, and the brown patches will turn orange, eg the brown bubbles.

*I have never seen a bronze bubble eye. I think they would be interesting in themselves. However I could try a bronze lionhead?? If I am lucky I will get to try a few different things with this guy.(still trying to find another blue female) Any suggest. still appreciated. The black bubble is sooooo velvety but is a freak, nothing goes near it. I also have bronze orandas that carry the same metallic pied blue gene, I bred this spring. Those I hope to make phoenix blue color with.


A: If you don’t mind, please keep the line bubble eye before you venture out crossing to non-bubble eye. You will lose many traits by out crossing. It takes many generations to create the shape, profile and finnage of various breeds, not one generation. You will end of with mutts of no value.

Phoenix blue appears to be blue-brown heritage, a different type of blue. I explained that in an earlier thread of yours. It came from second generation of mixing brown and dark blue goldfish. In brief, it has nothing to do with your type of metallic blue in your bubble eye.

Your black bubble might be a male if others don’t go near it. Males always go after females (unless they got health issues or not in breeding mode).

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Quote:
One of the parents of this fish must have been an orange bubble eye, with the depigment gene.
Probably not Bill. If you cross two of these blue pied fish you will get blue pied offspring and solid bronze/brown offspring. If you raise enough of them, you can find a few which do not have brown (underlying red). It seems to be about the same odds as finding all-white offspring in in any cross of red/white metallics. However, the vast majority of the offspring from these non-pied parents will be pied; just as red reappears when you cross two white metallic fish. Any of the blue pied fish can demelanize later in life, but not all will. The blue will become a dirty white and the brown will become a weak red.

-steve

A: I’ll clarify my thoughts further. I do not mean this blue bubble eye can’t come from breeding two piebald blue metallic bubbles together. My opinion was premised on the assumption that this is a chance sport, and none of its parent is a piebald blue metallic. The blue metallic goldfish genetics was investigated by SC Chen in 1930s in his scientific paper and was reviewed by Matsui in the 1950-60s. The blue goldfish as it was originally found in China and as a breed are solid dark blue, are born blue, are not piebald as was documented by SC CHen. The blue bubble eyes from the Chinese goldfish literatures and photos of both dorsal and dorsal-less varieties are also solid blue fish, no piebald.

However, as blue is a simple recessive, it can appear in the breed. However, the blue will differ depending on the mutation from which it arose. The current piebald blue is most likely mutation from the orange goldfish we have today. In their wild bronze form, which we commonly see today, these current uncoloured goldfish I believe are different in shade to the dark grey goldfish that SC Chen documented in the 1930s. I’ve seen the uncoloured wild goldfish from China, and their dark greenish grey back and light grey side are unlike the wild uncoloured goldfish we normally see in US and Australia. Thus, they will create blue metallic of different qualities.

If time permits, I will write about this in my blog. I believe the blue that result from our current form of ‘wild’ uncoloured goldfish are different to what SC Chen described, so any mutation of the blue are now a ‘lighter silver blue’ instead of the dark blue (or coined China blue by Harris in his Tommy side lionhead). The piebald can be produced by the current silver blue form (even in solid blue specimens) by crossing with orange specimens, and a mutation of the wild coloured form to the blue by a simple recessive.

Of course I agree with you, if this bubble is not a chance mutation on its own, but came from parental stocks which are blue metallic piebald bubble eyes, then it will be an offspring of piebald. However, I came from the angle this is a one-off sport, as the Chinese bubble eyes I seen in print are solid dark blue, not light silvery blue or piebald. Bubble eyes are most common in their orange form currently, and it is not impossible that in some of the uncoloured frys from orange bubble eyes (reversion to wild pigmentation state), a sport occurs with recessive to switch off the yellow pigments, resulting in this silvery blue. However, the blue metallic is not on the whole fish as it is not pure blue line, thus the piebald. Then, depigmentation of this blue will result in the purplish blue tint on the back of this blue bubble eye.

Furthermore, SC Chen did not comment any of his dark blue fish depigmented in the 1930s but they were all born blue and stayed blue. However Matsui noted the creation of new blue metallic varieties meant some did depigment to yellowish white (or you called dirty white) and the brown patches will go orange (or you call weak red). That came from mixing the pure dark blue type with the common orange goldfissh, which contains the depigment genes and the introduction of the piebald character which we see today.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards

Bill

[bekko]

The blue goldfish as it was originally found in China and as a breed are solid dark blue, are born blue, are not piebald as was documented by SC CHen. He notes that the solid dark blue Lan Yu have a large number of expanded melanophores plus reflective tissue. On the other hand, he describes the blue of the blue/brown pied fish as having very few or no melanophores with the color coming primarily from the reflecting tissue.

The blue oranda coming out of China at present seem to fall somewhere between these extremes. The blue oranda are also pied, but the blue and the brown are both much darker. Microscopic examination of the scales shows a large number of expanded melanophores. Xanthophores are contracted and dense. It is hard to say if they breed true or not. Many of the offspring do not have any blue, but they are darker than the typical wild color. I suspect it is just a matter of the dark brown patches having covered the entire body.

I’ve seen the uncolored wild goldfish from China, and their dark greenish grey back and light grey side are unlike the wild uncoloured goldfish we normally see in US and Australia. Thus, they will create blue metallic of different qualities. I don't know about Australia, but most goldfish in the US are not far removed from Chinese stock. But, yes, there are many different shades of the wild coloration, even within the same batch of siblings.

The piebald can be produced by the current silver blue form (even in solid blue specimens) by crossing with orange specimens, and a mutation of the wild coloured form to the blue by a simple recessive.
Actually, it appears that Chen developed the blue/brown pied color in the course of the work leading up to the 1930 paper. They appeared in the F2 after a cross of a solid blue Lan Yu to a solid brown Tse Yu.

-steve

[orandablue]

{Phoenix blue appears to be blue-brown heritage, a different type of blue. I explained that in an earlier thread of yours. It came from second generation of mixing brown and dark blue goldfish. In brief, it has nothing to do with your type of metallic blue in your bubble eye.}
This scares me. This spring I breed a chocolate with a metallic "piebald" orandas. The fry are gray/brown no blue. However I was under the impression that if (these fry) bred together would produce "phoenix blue" in about 25%!? Very tricky subject maybe I am just not getting it. But actually I dont even think I have EVER SEEN an all blue fish. I have only witnesses the blue and with brown spotty metallics.

{Your black bubble might be a male if others don’t go near it. Males always go after females (unless they got health issues or not in breeding mode). }
Really looks female. Could a health issue be a slightly curved face?

I go look for all blue fish now. :coffee:

[bwleung]

Steve,

My understanding from reading this paper of Chen is different to yours. When he crossed the dark blue with the brown, he found that the frys which had the 5 recessive genes which he called ‘blue-brown’ were uniform in colour, a ‘light blue’, and not a piebald, as per his very last illustration from the colour plates (Plate IV, figure 6).

The plates showed correctly the wild, the dark blue and the brown and the light blue which he coined ‘blue-brown’ as it is indeed the combination of the blue and brown goldfish. The blue-brown fish in his plate was not a piebald, it had one single light blue colour throughout. Chen did not mention in his paper nor on his illustration of the colour plate that the cross resulted in a piebald blue brown goldfish.

Oranda Blue,

If yours is piebald oranda, ie not a dark blue. Then the genetic equation may differ. Only when you mix dark blue with chocolate do you find some fish that is light blue or you called phoenix blue. In this case, these frys carried all 5 recessive genes (four brown and one blue recessives). Others will be dark blue, brown, grey and black etc.

I wouldn’t get too worried. Breed them back to your blue piebald oranda, you should get more blue % out of this cross than crossing the frys with each other.

Kind regards

Bill

[bekko]

The blue-brown fish in his plate was not a piebald, it had one single light blue colour throughout.
Bill, look at page 73, paragraph 5 where he says "the xanthophores are much more develped and distributed in large patches". Plate IV, figure 8 is sort of cryptic but tries to illustrate the point. Also, when Matsui recapitulates Chen's paper on blue and brown he says, "There has also been a blue-brown goldfish developed, which has a body of blue with brown or bronze patches."

-steve