Green Water Set up

[small_ranchu]

I am just curious who is using GW setup here since I saw a lot of GW question/discussion lately.

For me I am using Clear water setup with a lot of water change.

[thomasn]

I have a clear water setup with a lot of water change and a green water setup

[OldMarine]

Not quite sure what you are referring to when you say green water setup. I have a 365 gallon inground outdoor pond that that has been setup since Sept of 2008. I have only done one water change in that time and my water is still crystal clear. Why would I want it to be green?

I have a 18 gallon skimmer/pre-filter inline with a 27 gallon boi-filter that is currently down for the winter. All of this filter system is plumbed into the side of my pond and is out of sight to make the pond look as natural as I can possibly make it.

[small_ranchu]

Not quite sure what you are referring to when you say green water setup. I have a 365 gallon inground outdoor pond that that has been setup since Sept of 2008. I have only done one water change in that time and my water is still crystal clear. Why would I want it to be green?

I have a 18 gallon skimmer/pre-filter inline with a 27 gallon boi-filter that is currently down for the winter. All of this filter system is plumbed into the side of my pond and is out of sight to make the pond look as natural as I can possibly make it.

Please read here
http://vermilliongoldfishclub.com/greenwater-frame.html

[bigbettadan]

To me, it is more about the algae than the green water. You have seen the depth of the color from the fish I have raised outdoors in the summer. I let algae grow on the sides of the tubs, but no green water per say. But of course the some master breeders in Asia swear by it. Just my 2 cents...

Dan

[OldMarine]

Thanks for the clearification, much appreciated.

Happy ponding,

[nygold]

I am just curious who is using GW setup here since I saw a lot of GW question/discussion lately.

For me I am using Clear water setup with a lot of water change.

I keep most of my fish in a 150 gallon or so green water setup and I rotate fish into my CW tank. I've been using GW for almost a year now both indoor and out. There are both myths and truths to GW. I felt it was a part of goldfish keeping that I wanted to try.

[afertuna]

wouldnt the higher amount of ammonia needed to feed the free floating algea be harmfull for the fish and algea in known to depleat the oxygen??? just curious...I want to find an easier way to get a green set up for daphnia never thought it would be great for the fish too.

[nygold]

The algea feed off the amonia and the byproduct is oxygen so the water is surpirsingly stable. Believe it or not goldfish thrive in GW.

[afertuna]

Thats good to know that the water is stable ao what is the best way to achieve the safest way to get green water? Do you recomend the method of using fertilizer?

[nygold]

what is the best way to achieve the safest way to get green water? Do you recomend the method of using fertilizer?

These are 2 good questions.
Let me start by saying I never used fertilizer to start GW so I wouldn't know how much to use, I don't even know what fertilizer is or where to buy it.

Now for the safest way, I don't know the safest way to do anything. But if I had absolutely no GW at all I would start with a tub like container and only put a gallon or 2 of water in it. Then add an airstone, a light source and a few feeder goldfish. In less than 2 weeks you'll have GW. Then you can use the 2 gallons or so to seed what ever tank or tub you want your GW in.
Instead of using feeders you can try fertilizer or you can pee in it.
Yeah I know it's gross but I did it over the summer and it worked.
Anyhow I guess my point is I would start with a small amout and then seed the water I wanted to make green with it.

[HNLim]

The algea feed off the amonia and the byproduct is oxygen so the water is surpirsingly stable. Believe it or not goldfish thrive in GW.
The question is does that means that goldfish do not thrive in CW?

[HNLim]

I would like to ask all Green Water connoisseurs/ practitioners. Is there anything about goldfish keeping that you cannot achieve with Clear Water.



I know of many things you cannot achieve with Green Water.

[nygold]

The question is does that means that goldfish do not thrive in CW?

Yes under the same conditions in CW the fish will die.

[HNLim]

Yes under the same conditions in CW the fish will die.
In CW keeping, you need to have a proper filtration system otherwise it will become a GW set-up. You can keep up to 10 times more fish in the proper CW system than compared to the tradition GW method. You only need to know how to, and it is very simple too.

Have a Happy and prosperous New Year.

[OldMarine]

HNLin,

I have to agree with you. I haunt several other forums and message boards for pond and fish keeping information, and no where else have I ever come across any chatter about green water being important to raising and caring for pond fish.

I have to admit, over the last twelve years of ponding I have learned enough to understand the importance of a sound filtration system that helps create the natural balance a pond needs to maintain healthy fish, snails, forgs and plant life. Actually, I learned more over this last year after installing a 365 gallon pond and using the wrong filtration system.

When I look into any pond, I expect to see clear water and healthy fish. When I look into a pond that is green or brown, I can't help but to wonder what's wrong with this picture.

Happy ponding,

[HNLim]

HNLin,

I have to agree with you. I haunt several other forums and message boards for pond and fish keeping information, and no where else have I ever come across any chatter about green water being important to raising and caring for pond fish.

I have to admit, over the last twelve years of ponding I have learned enough to understand the importance of a sound filtration system that helps create the natural balance a pond needs to maintain healthy fish, snails, forgs and plant life. Actually, I learned more over this last year after installing a 365 gallon pond and using the wrong filtration system.

When I look into any pond, I expect to see clear water and healthy fish. When I look into a pond that is green or brown, I can't help but to wonder what's wrong with this picture.

Happy ponding,
So, what is your advise?

[small_ranchu]

HNLin,

I have to agree with you. I haunt several other forums and message boards for pond and fish keeping information, and no where else have I ever come across any chatter about green water being important to raising and caring for pond fish.



For green water discussion, you can read here. Thanks.

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showforum=5

[HNLim]

For green water discussion, you can read here. Thanks.

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showforum=5
Why do you need to divert the discussion to another forum? Try doing it at some other forum and they will warn you or zap you or put you under moderation.

Do you not already know that some forums are one sided and are dominated by some group of people? Even their super moderators can rally up other members by sending pms spreading lies just to try to make themselves look good.

If a forum has to specifically ask you if you use GW, you know where they are coming from.

I hope this forum is not like that.

[small_ranchu]

We try to avoid politic on this forum. We will provide you information if you want. In the mean time we are not pro-GW or anti-GW. All we do is attaing knowledge for ultimate goldfish keeping.

and we don't mind pointing to other forum if information is appropriate.

[HNLim]

We try to avoid politic on this forum. We will provide you information if you want. In the mean time we are not pro-GW or anti-GW. All we do is attaing knowledge for ultimate goldfish keeping.

and we don't mind pointing to other forum if information is appropriate.
I am really glad that this forum is neutral. I still feel that this subject will get a very much fairer discussion here than in another bias forum. I am also glad that politics are being avoided here.

I am still awaiting contribution regarding anything or quality that GW can produce in goldfish that a properly CW set-up cannot produce.

[OldMarine]

small_ranchu,

If that was a point I wanted to make, that would be it.

Happy ponding,

[HNLim]

small_ranchu,

If that was a point I wanted to make, that would be it.

Happy ponding,
What is the point of keeping goldfish in your pond/tub/tank when you cannot see the fish when you have a very clear and better alternative?

[small_ranchu]

I believe we are trying to understand what is the best method to groom your fish for show or raise your frys. For decorative purpose, we have many other threads/site.

Mr. Lim
We all know you are good in grooming fish in clear water by seeing your fish. It is not fair to keep blaming GW technique while you keep your mouth shut whenever people ask you how you groom your fish in clear water.

[OldMarine]

Dear Mr. Administrator,

You have my apologies, I had no intentions on getting caught up in a pissing match. It is my impression that we don't come to this forum, and other forums to force our opinions on other people.

I was not trying to make a point or force my opinion. I only wanted to clearify what the importance of having a 'green water' system was all about. Maybe a scientific explanation on this GW system would help all of us understand why this is so important.

Happy ponding,

[Corrie]

wouldnt the higher amount of ammonia needed to feed the free floating algea be harmfull for the fish and algea in known to depleat the oxygen??? just curious...I want to find an easier way to get a green set up for daphnia never thought it would be great for the fish too.

That and some other things.
Algae need several things to grow - N-P-K, iron, trace minerals, etc. Only one of those things can become limiting and crash the culture.

All algae cultures run the risk of crashing.
I would be more worried about a crash killing everything.

The way I see people discussing growing green water, I don't see how anyone can do that and not introduce all sorts of problems with parasites, bacteria, etc.

Then there's the anecdotal side that I think is coming into play too.
There may be a things that people attribute to green water, that have nothing to do with green water. It could be darker water making the fish color up more, sunlight bringing out colors, more grazing because of everything else that goes along with green water, and there are things that make fish look better that are not necessarily good for the fish.

I know that this does not work for fish that are raised commercially, and a lot of the same principals would apply.

Corrie

[small_ranchu]

Happy ponding Rich. :)

[bigbettadan]

I have never understood why this subject is so controversial. Everyones method varies. The proofs in the pudding. If you produce great fish, whichever method you use, stick with it. Personally, I think the sunlight is the key to the coloration/vitality. I am able to produce blood red fish that way. But thats what works for me.

Dan

[thomasn]

ditto what dan said

what I can't get in my cw system that I can get in my gw system
- zero nitrates
- a constant supply of green veg
- better color

I have extremely hard tap water and high PH so I try to keep all byproducts to a minimum whether by lots of water changes, culturing green water, Purigen or lots of floating plants.

I don't have a lot of sunlight in my second story apartment. I'm also limited on tank size and the number of times I can do a water change (i.e. annoys my neighbor below me). I wouldn't advocate gw for everybody or even as the ultimate goldfish keeping. It's convenient for me, for now.

That and some other things.
Algae need several things to grow - N-P-K, iron, trace minerals, etc. Only one of those things can become limiting and crash the culture.

All algae cultures run the risk of crashing.
I would be more worried about a crash killing everything.

The way I see people discussing growing green water, I don't see how anyone can do that and not introduce all sorts of problems with parasites, bacteria, etc.

Then there's the anecdotal side that I think is coming into play too.
There may be a things that people attribute to green water, that have nothing to do with green water. It could be darker water making the fish color up more, sunlight bringing out colors, more grazing because of everything else that goes along with green water, and there are things that make fish look better that are not necessarily good for the fish.

I know that this does not work for fish that are raised commercially, and a lot of the same principals would apply.

Corrie

all I got is anecdotal.

IME, when the algae crashes, they don't kill the fish. Yes, there are problems with parasites, bacteria, etc but I've had those problems in clear water setups too.

Whether or not green water is responsible for making the fish color up more, sunlight bringing out colors, more grazing because of everything else that goes along with green water etc, doesn't matter to me as much as getting the fish to color up more, more grazing and getting everything else people attribute to gw . . . I wish I had the space to find out what the relationship is between gw and its "benefits" but I don't. I do plan on trying your nanno paste technique.

[nygold]

The bottom line is if you would like to try a different way of keeping goldfish GW is a different way. This seems to always be a hot topic. It's also very hard to compare the two types. There are basically 2 ways to keep GW outside under the sun and inside under a light. CW can be probably be kept a dozen or more ways so it's hard to compare.
Those that are interested can find enough info on the internet and this web page to get started if they choose.

[HNLim]

zero nitrates- have you tested the nitrate at the bottom of the pond and also the nitrate levels during the night and dawn? Allow wall algae to grow in your set-up and see if you get zero nitrate?

a constant supply of green veg- Wall algae is a better alternative. Your fish gets to chew the greens whereas in GW you fish gets to drink greens. How nuch can they drink. There is very little veggie substance when you compare the two. Why not try drinking veggie water with the same colour hue as your GW set-up and compare with eating veggie and you will know what I mean. Veggie fibre comes in two form. Soluble and insoluble. Both are import and and works hand-in-hand.

better color - The brilliant colour of your goldfish is the result of UV light and not GW. Try rasing your fish with GW without the UV light and see if the colour gets better?

There are many more things you will not be able to produce with GW as compared with a properly set-up CW system. The results of my fish speak for itself.

[thomasn]

those are all good points.

I didn't add that when I used gw in the summer outside, I didn't use a filter or an airstone so cost is minimal to setup. I didn't test the water so there might have been nitrates or ammonia caused by the dying algae. It's cold here and my patio gets no sun so now so I have my gw setup inside under compact fluorescent so no UV. IMO, color is better. I'll see if I can test my indoor setup night and dawn.

what do you consider "properly" set-up CW system? can you elaborate on what one is not be able to produce with GW as compared with a properly set-up CW system? Will you speak on how you groom your fish?

[thomasn]

nitrate in gw is approx 40 ppm at dawn. I am corrected!

[judge]

My experience with green water are:
1. It does gives better, brighter and more intense color. These were out door tanks so I am not sure whether it is because of UV light or the green algae that the fish consume.
2. With green water we need a strong air bubbles.
3. No filteration was necessary and hence no frequent wanter changes.
4. I see green fish poops. So they must be eating them somehow.
5. Since I cannot see the fish, it is normally at bad condition when I discover something is wrong with it. Diseases are common but with GW your chance of discovering it early is less.
6. Insects problems. I had some blood sucking insects and dragon fly larvae.
7. When I fed, I can't tell the fish has completely consumed the food or there are left overs.
8. Fish can't see the food they search for food by smell. I could't tell if every one has enough.
9. In the very early morning I saw fish near the surface.

I did not have scientific result. It was about 15 years ago when I did these. I didn't do this because I knew at that time GW was good.

I had many big outdoor tanks and especially fry and baby grow out tanks, I can't do water changes that much. Also I had zero filtration system, didn't even know it existed.

When water became green in my baby grow out tanks I noticed that the fish seems to feel better than the white cloudy water that I got without filteration on the second day of water change. I didn't know what ammonia was or nitrification process. With strong sun in tropical weather getting green water in the tank was extremely easy and fast.

If I would do it again. No. I would rather have better filtration system. I want to enjoy my fish all the time... :)

[nygold]

I like my GW.
I have no problem seeing my fish and I like the deep reds, quick groth rate and overall fullness the fish get.
When I compare my fish in GW to my fish in CW with an OHF my GW fish are nicer. Also there is a certain behavior that the fish have in GW, they seem very calm and relaxed. They appear much happier in my GW then in my CW.
There is something very natural about it.

[bigbettadan]

I get blood red color and quick growth in outdoor CW, but they are eating wall algae. I know when I would fast them for a show I would get green droppings........

Dan

[OldMarine]

Hi Judge,

Thank you for sharing your information and experiences with GW, but about thirty years ago I had a above ground pond that I filled with water and a dozen or so cheep feeder gold fish for the kids to watch. No filtraion at all, and of course right away the water pea soap green. Not being able to see the fish we lost interest, and couple of years later got around to draining the pond. We found one gold fish left, and it was about ten inches long. It was quite impressive to see how fat it was. I was amased that even it servived without any care. We gave it to a friend that had a nice pond, and the fat boy made itself at home there.

My interest in ponds and fish is not for bleeding or raising show fish. I have have always wanted a pond in the back yard that wasn't going to be a ton of maintnance, and that I could sit and relax and watch the fish. I currently have a 365 gallon pond that has a 18G skimmer/pre-filter where the water pump is, and that pumps up to a 27G boi-filter that is retired for the winter. That water back down into the water fall base and back to the pond. With existing setup I only need to rinse the pre-filter about once a week in the summer time. It took part of last summer to adjust and tweek the filtration system to what it is today. My point is that I too, like seeing my fish, frogs, and snails that live in my pond.

I really appreciate all of the imformation that is shared here.

Happy ponding,
Rich:coffee:

[OldMarine]

Hi bigbettadan,

Last summer I observed my shubunkins graizing on the algae growing on the walls of my pond. For that reason I would skip feeding my fish for one day a week. Of course like typical carp they always look hungry, but between the shubukins and the trap door snails they put a tent in minimizing the algae growth in my pond.

I would have to say that I have a good balance of life in my pond, and the water is crystal clear all of the time now.

Happy ponding,
Rich:coffee:

[nygold]

Kind of like putting a koi in a mud pond that's how I use my GW.
I rotate fish from my GW into a 45 gallon CW tank. The problem I ran into was some of the fish in GW outgrew the 45 gallon tank.
I picked up 2 black comets at the end of June they were so small they could have swam through my wedding ring. Now the biggest one is 8 1/2" the last time I measured him. No more single tails in the house.