Substrate

[gusgail]

Just curious,

what are the pros and cons of having a substrate.

Thanks

[small_ranchu]

In general,
Pro,
it looks nice
Cons,
1.If the substrate is small gravel, it might stuck in the fish mouth
2.If you do not clean it well, it is attracking problems (left over food and waste might becomes toxic to fish)

[gusgail]

Thanks Fred! i guess the cons out weight the pros....

[small_ranchu]

Yep.. That's why a lot of us going for bare bottom.

[sweetshannon]

I used to have bare bottom, but now use a very small layer of gravel. I like the look right now, who knows when I will change my mind. I have such a thin layer that you can see the bottom in places and I always clean it very well to get any junk. It is really a matter of taste. I do agree that gravel does pose a choking hazard, so large gravel is important.

[flaringshutter]

I don't know if you guys agree, but I think substrate is nice for singletail fish. My comets and shubs adore 'sifting and spitting' for sinking pellets, and I don't think they would be as happy with a barebottom tank.

[small_ranchu]

I agree. Problem is how do we know their emotion such as happy, sad, depress, anxiety? As long as, the tank is clean enough, that should be fine.

[Jed]

In general,
Pro,
it looks nice
Cons,
1.If the substrate is small gravel, it might stuck in the fish mouth
2.If you do not clean it well, it is attracking problems (left over food and waste might becomes toxic to fish)


Meaning nitrates off the chart!

[Jed]

I don't know if you guys agree, but I think substrate is nice for singletail fish. My comets and shubs adore 'sifting and spitting' for sinking pellets, and I don't think they would be as happy with a barebottom tank.

Well, I have plastic plants and large rocks, and I personally think they are happy as long as they have hiding places

[bekko]

The fish will root around on the bottom looking for food. If they can disturb and plow the substrate all the way to the bottom then there is no problem. If they cannot disturb the substrate all the way to the bottom on a frequent basis then bad things start to accumulate. Of course, some individual fish are more intent on plowing the bottom than others so it is hard to find the right balance.

-steve

[jinyu_fan]

I have gravel in my tanks and I do prefer the look to bare bottom. My fish are constantly rooting around the gravel and sifting through the substrate. They look busy and I enjoy watching them. While there is a lot to say for those fish keepers intent on getting size and heft on their fish, that is not my sole intent as a hobbyist. Part of the enjoyment comes from watching them interact with their surroundings which include the aquarium decorations that offer hiding places and substrate through which to sift and forage. Since the nitrate in my tanks are always <10, I feel comfortable that I am keeping my fish in a clean environment. But in the end, it does come down to individual preference.

[Fishguy2727]

I personally feel sorry for fish kept in hospital room like tanks. My goldfish sift through the sand all the time, and it is better for the plants too, which the goldfish also love.

I know they like it because if they didn't like it or it hurt them in some way they would stop.

I think of it like this: if someone kept me in a 20'x20' concrete pit I would rather have soil and trees than bare concrete and maybe a few potted plants. Denying them these things because it makes it a tad easier for us to clean is wrong. And sand is just as easy to keep clean as bare.

Sifting through the substrate in search of food is a very natural behavior that shouldn't be denied.

[bekko]

I agree, as long as they do not unearth an anaerobic spot with decaying food and Aeromonas. The depth and particle size of the substrate needs to be taylored to the size and number of fish and their activitiy level. It's a delicate balance.

-steve

[Virginia ranchu]

I don't recommend substrate in fry tanks or with breeders who are being conditioned, but I do like it in my display tank. The substrate provides surface area for nitrogen fixing bacteria. The water quality stays more stable in my planted tank with substrate, and I have less of a problem with algae.

I have had a fish get a pebble stuck in its mouth. I had to insert a wire under the gill cover to push the pebble out of its mouth. The fish recovered fine.

[Fishguy2727]

Malaysian trumpet snails can be used to keep the entire sand bed fresh. Grain size also greatly effects the ability for oxygen to get down to the entire sand bed. I use Estes' Marine Sand and it is large enough to allow oxygen from the water column to get down to the entire sand bed.

Effectively all of the nitrifying bacteria are in the filter, not the substrate, decorations, etc.

[Ichthius]

Effectively all of the nitrifying bacteria are in the filter, not the substrate, decorations, etc.

You're way off there. Every surface of a tank including the substrate and decorations become covered in autotrophic biofilms.

[Fishguy2727]

Any organism lives where conditions are best for it. This is basic ecology/biology. This also applies to microorganisms. Nitrifying bacteria need certain things to live. In our aquariums the most important factors for nitrifying bacteria are oxygen and food (ammonia and nitrite). These things are highest in the filters. Just like humans do not simply spread out evenly across a continent, nitrifying bacteria do not simply spread out evenly in the aquarium. The high flow area in the media in the filter is a much better habitat for nitrifying bacteria than on the glass, substrate, decor, etc. throughout the tank. This does not mean there are no bacteria throughout the tank, but that EFFECTIVELY all of the nitrifying bacteria are in the filter. There are bacteria throughout the tank, on every single surface, but not in significant numbers. If this was not true than filtration would not be nearly as important and cleaning filter media too well would never be a problem. I have moved tanks many times by moving all the fish and all the filtration at the same time. I have never had any issues doing this, no minicycles, no problems at all. If it was not true that effectively all the nitrifying bacteria were in the filter I would have severe problems every time.

[Ichthius]

"Any organism lives where conditions are best for it."
Yet another completely incorrect statement.

Most life lives where it can not where it wants. Yes it will live in a higher density if provide ideal conditions but a surface in the tank or a surface in the filter are just as suitable to for nitrifying bacteria and the waste is uniformly distributed throughout the water column so the surfaces in the tank that get the waste first have everything they need to live.

We use filters for their increased surface area and they provide sufficient surface area to digest the waste of our fish without needing the bacteria in the tank but there is often more bacteria in a large tank and it's surfaces than in the filter itself.

I to am a biologist, and infact I'm an aquaculturist by day and have been keeping fish all my life...

[Fishguy2727]

If you think organisms don't live where conditions are best for them then you are ignoring the entire field of ecology.

I am not just talking about surface area. They need more than surface area. They need oxygen and food. Both of these are best provided for them in the filter where high flow provides a constant supply of oxygen and food. Yes, there things are throughout the aquarium, but the flow in other parts of the aquarium is far from what it is in the filter, meaning the oxygen and food provided there is much less.

If I am so wrong please explain how I can move all the fish and all the filtration to a brand new virgin tank and not have any hint of a minicycle, since apparently it is not true that effectively all of the nitrifying bacteria are in the filter.

If the substrate matters at all when it comes to nitrifying bacteria then why can so many people completely change out their entire substrate bed and have no hint of a minicycle? I have done this multiple times and never had a any trace of a minicycle. All of this points to effectively all nitrifying bacteria being in the filters. And the more advanced fishkeepers I have talked to have also come to the same conclusion, they are in the filters.

When did you get your Biology degree?

[Ichthius]

Your understanding of ecology is very wrong then, it's not about what's best it's about what works and how you eak out of living in a complex and competitive world. Maybe our fish keeper who works for an Evolution and Ecology department will chime in...

Of course organisms can live and thrive where it's best for them if they can get there but it's the living in the location where they end up that may not be best for them that drives speciation and complexity in ecosystems. If every life form ended up where it was best for them they would out compete everything in their path and you would have monocultures not ecosystems.

You do not have a mini cycle when you move a filter to a new tank because as I said before a properly sized filter can house sufficient bacterial populations to support the fish. The problem with you claims is the word effectively... you have enough bacteria to filter the fish waste but it still does not remove the fact that once established the surface areas of a tank can "effectively" house more bacteria than your filter. Just because your filter has enough bacteria to run you tank does not eleminate the presence and abundance of biofilms in the tank.

All bacteria need to grow is a surface, a nitrogen source (ammonia), a carbon source (bi or carbonates which your forgot to mention) and oxygen. All of those are first and formost supplied in the tank before the filter can access it. In most situations the bacteria is in a nearly constant state of starvation so any waste that is produced throughout the day is largely consumed by the tank bacteria. With this fact and large water changes is how our Asian friends largely keep thier fish.

My degree is from The Evergreen State College, where is yours from? What do you do for a living? I'm responsible for about a million dollars of aquaculture in a state of the art research facility. What do you do?

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, you obviously do a lot of reading just try doing once in a while.

In theory, theory and practice are the same, in practice they are not.

[fishes2catch]

OK, So I don't know if I want to get into this "pissing match" but I have been summoned to chime in....

All of the fish hobby literature, old and new, that I have read holds the theory that "good" bacteria will populate all parts of an aquarium system that present the requirements needed for it to live (O2, Food source, carbon). This includes filters, tubes, glass, substrate and etc (and even the water column). I have always subscribed to this theory and have successfully kept fish practicing this theory. The reason that we use filters is to increase the surface area so that we can keep higher concentrations of fish in any given size tank. There is tons of literature and practice of people keeping fish without any filters and relying purely on the filtration (bacteria) growing on the tanks surfaces (google "natural aquarium"). I have a few tanks at home, although not goldfish tanks, where I keep fish in 1 gallon jars without the use of added filters.

I have talked with a few microbial ecologists in our department and they have confirmed these ideas that bacteria will grow pretty much everywhere, even if it is not in optimal conditions. In fact it is hard to have a surface that they will not grow on.

As for knowing where and how many bacteria there are in different parts of an aquarium system. I think that this is something that could be tested. I do know of a few images from hobby books of bacteria growing on a gravel substrate but I have not seen any literature on where to find or the abundance of bacteria in different parts of an aquarium system. Maybe someone can help us out here.

Mark

[Fishguy2727]

I just got my Biology degree from George Mason University. I am starting a new job at a growing LFS where I will be in charge of the Freshwater Department.

They end up in the filter as well as all over the tank. But the ones that end up in the filter are provided with more of those exact nutrients you mentioned because of the higher flow there. They do better. They outcompete the others because they get so much of it so often. The fact that there is enough bacteria in the filter to support the entire bioload is exactly my point of effectively all the bacteria are in the fitler.

I never once said there wasn't any bacteria throughout the tank. There is. But effectively all of the nitrifying bacteria are in the filter. There are bacteria all over the tank and I never once said anything to the contrary. All I specified was that effectively all are in the filter. With too little flow through the filter more will grow in the tank that if there was adequate filtration. With inadequate circulation in the tank the same thing can happen.

Please treat me and others with more respect than you just showed. The following, whether you meant it or not, was not respectful. At the least it should have been worded differently. Before you even know what I do you are telling me to do once in a while. The examples I gave are not just theoreticals out of a book, they are from first-hand experience (doing).

"I'm responsible for about a million dollars of aquaculture in a state of the art research facility. What do you do?

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, you obviously do a lot of reading just try doing once in a while."

[Ajno]

Ok boys and girls can you play nice or do I have to lock this thread?

[Fishguy2727]

I think a debate is very beneficial for anyone reading or posting, as long as it remains respectful and productive (keep sharing information and stick to the facts).

[GoldfishAdmin]

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your input in this thread. But we need to discuss in a positive perception. In the end we are trying to find a way to promote our goldfish keeping method. We are not promoting our way of doing thing. On the other hand, we don't need to get angry when the other person is not agreeing with our method.
Fishguy: I agree w/ you. Debating is good but in society, people prefer positive debating.
PLEASE keep the discussion in positive way.

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Interesting topic.......:confuse:

[fishes2catch]

Hi All,

Sorry if I came off as being negative, I was actually trying to bring a bit of civility to the debate. I find this subject to be very interesting and find that hearing everyone's ideas is a great way of learning.

Getting back to the original topic: I think that having a substrate or not depends on the application. Show tanks in my opinion look best with a layer of substrate, plants and etc. Grow out tanks where ease of cleaning, catching and other is important do not necessarily need a substrate.

I agree we should all be respectful of others and their ideas.

Mark