Wintering Fancies outside?

[Ichthius]

I've got a batch of fancy goldfish I'm over wintering in an above ground pond. Anyone else keep any fancies outside in the winter?

Last year the pond got 3 inches of ice on it and most made it through without a hitch.

Ultimately it will be a selection criteria for my breeders as I want to develop strains of cold hardy fish that can handle the winter in a pond.

I think we've become to reliant on fish from tropical areas that can not survive the cold. This has lead to all the ponds becoming koi ponds when they should rightfully be goldfish ponds.

On other forums most people are shocked at fish being kept in the 60s let alone below freezing.

This is the group that spent last winter outside.
http://picasaweb.google.com/DavidLains/NotSoFragileWeSpentTheWinterUnder2IncheOfIce#

[Ajno]

Good for you, I hope it is successful again for you this year. Keep us posted. Its supposed to be in the single digits this weekend with snow, wonder if that weather is going to hit you too.....

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Is that a Green Pondliner? Where did you get them? Im plan to build couple small pond, 10*3*3 GF pond. Looking at pondline, but all black. Green would do better than black for me.

[Ichthius]

It is green on one side and black on the other.

I've had that liner for 18 years so I'm not sure they are still available but it was marketed by tetra and is stamped with their log all over the place. I bought it mail order from Pet Solutions or Pet warehouse or something like that.

Let me know if you find one as I'd love to have more. I think fish look great on green and you can't always have greenwater.

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[King_oF_Ranchu]

Just that some fish are proper to keeper in green/blue/black container. Rarely seeing green!:youtellme:

[bekko]

David, quite a few of the goldfish coming into the US are grown outdoors in the Shanghai region. Shanghai has a climate similar to yours.

-steve

[King_oF_Ranchu]

Glad to see you here,STeve!!! :thumbUp:

[Ichthius]

Welcome Steve!

I've recently made that point in a discussion about keeping goldfish cooler.

All my commercial fish are out of Shanghai.

What's the coldest your ponds get?

[bekko]

About 70 F in winter, 75 F in summer.

-steve

[Ichthius]

You've got it made in the shade!

Do you use lava for filtration?

I use 1/4 pieces in box filters but have moved away from it on large applications.

[veryl]

I've heard that the small ones do ok outside over winter but the larger fish have a harder time of it. But wouldn't even try it in Minnesota, temp just made it up to zero degrees. We drive cars on the lakes to go ice fishing.

[bekko]

coral rubble.

-steve

[Ajno]

So how's the overwintering going David? Have you been hit with some of these nasty storms?

[Ichthius]

Well when I shipped a box of large commons this week I had to chip through 2 inches of ice. They are in a different system than the fancies but I suspect the fancies are under about 3 or more inches of ice as the pond had a lot of snow fall in it. That usually speeds up the thickness of the ice.

We've been a day or so without snow but it will be a while before I can get through the ice. There's a pair of very nice lionheads in the group. I'm really hoping they are a true pair. I really like having lionheads/ranchu in the pond.

For me tanks are nice but it's just not nearly as good as a top view situation.

How's the weather for you over in the good old Tri-Cities?

[johnatoranchu]

Shouldn't it be about quality David rather than durability? I won't let my Fancies go below 50F for longer than 2/3 weeks but prefer to rest them at 52/53F for 8 weeks during which time they are fed only on frozen bloodworm, small portion once a day.
John

[thomasn]

Shouldn't it be about quality David rather than durability? I won't let my Fancies go below 50F for longer than 2/3 weeks but prefer to rest them at 52/53F for 8 weeks during which time they are fed only on frozen bloodworm, small portion once a day.:youtellme:
John

Maybe quality should include cold hardiness or durability as well.

[johnatoranchu]

Maybe quality should include cold hardiness or durability as well.

Sorry disagree. You have some beautiful COLD WATER fish in the States so if cold water fish is the goal surely better to keep them. It's difficult enough breeding quality fancy goldfish, to breed "hardy" ones will only be achieved through lowering the quality aimed for. With the difficulties you guys now face importing fancy goldfish surely the time as come for you all to concentrate on quality before it's too late!
John

[jinyu_fan]

Keep up the good work David. I know many people would like to have ponds but do not have the space for a large koi pond. While commons, comets and shubbies are nice, I do like the idea of keeping fancy goldfish - at least the hardier breeds - outside.

[thomasn]

Sorry disagree. You have some beautiful COLD WATER fish in the States so if cold water fish is the goal surely better to keep them. It's difficult enough breeding quality fancy goldfish, to breed "hardy" ones will only be achieved through lowering the quality aimed for. With the difficulties you guys now face importing fancy goldfish surely the time as come for you all to concentrate on quality before it's too late!
John

Goldfish are COLD WATER fish. do by 'quality' you mean just external structure and appearance? :youtellme:

[Ichthius]

Hi John

Is this John Parker? If so it was great speaking with you at the breeders social a couple years ago.

I think cold hardiness is critical factor in quality and without it the fish are limited to a life in an aquarium. It also has an important role in health and hardiness. I think of it as another trait, one that has been ignored in this hobby and country since imports from Asia have been available.

Fancy fish produced in tropical conditions for extreme and exaggerated forms is fine if that's what you are after. Personally I'm after a well balanced fish that can live in a pond year round.

I think the belief that fancy goldfish can not be kept in ponds is a major reason goldfish keeping in this country has take a large hit. Koi have taken over because that's what you put in ponds. Most ponds are to small for koi but would make great goldfish ponds.

The word association is Koi= pond goldfish = bowl. My goal is to undo this mentality because it sentences cheep mutt koi to a life in a pond that is to small and for most goldfish it is a death sentence in a bowl or small tank.

The great thing about goldfish is you can geek out on fins, peduncle, wen, shape, size, hardiness or just about anything that floats your boat. This is the spirit that has given us the diversity of forms we all enjoy so much. If you just give up because of the status quo we'll never move forward.

[Ajno]

Well when I shipped a box of large commons this week I had to chip through 2 inches of ice. They are in a different system than the fancies but I suspect the fancies are under about 3 or more inches of ice as the pond had a lot of snow fall in it. That usually speeds up the thickness of the ice.

We've been a day or so without snow but it will be a while before I can get through the ice. There's a pair of very nice lionheads in the group. I'm really hoping they are a true pair. I really like having lionheads/ranchu in the pond.

For me tanks are nice but it's just not nearly as good as a top view situation.

How's the weather for you over in the good old Tri-Cities?

Its freakin cold here! Just started snowing again and we are expecting 4-8 inches which is a lot for us since we already have 5 inches. If I had fish outdoors they would be frozen solid....

[bekko]

I agree with John. The characteristics which make a goldfish "fancy" come part and parcel with inherent weaknesses including little tolerance for cold. It is easy to breed out the weaknesses but, in so doing, you invariably breed out the fancy characteristics too. If you want the ideal conformation in a fancy variety, you have to accept the inherent weaknesses. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

While many commodity goldfish are produced in tropical regions these days, the fancy varieties were developed and refined in a temperate climate. If it was possible to have cold-hardy fancy varieties, then they would already exist.

-steve

[Ichthius]

But again, they do exist, period. It's just that the mass mentality about goldfish is they are to fragile for a pond. It's bull at least in the temperate climate of Oregon and I suspect at least 1/2 of the US.

Take the Blue Phoenix... It does just fine under ice.

I have a pond of commercially produced strains that are under 3 inches of ice. Yes I loose some to the cold but those who are left are hardy and are as fine of a commercial fish as I can obtain through the wholesale channels.

If I want better fish I'll have to breed my own.

If your goal is to bred the best show quality this or that, great keep them warm and focus on the traits you prefer. I'm confident with a few selection events for cold hard you can start selecting for that perfect fish.

Plus fish grown in colder conditions will live considerably longer than a large ranchu brought in from the tropics.

[johnatoranchu]

Hi David
Yes, the news is bad - it really is me!!!! I missed the Breeders' Social this year, only the second one I've missed since 2001, because the changed date clashed with the two major specialist Goldfish shows in the UK, the Goldfish Society of Great Britain's Open Show in London and Jinchu Kai UK's specialist Ranchu show. (Got a heap of awards in both so just as well I didn't miss them!!!).
"thomasn" - sorry I don't know your real name and sorry again but FANCY goldfish are definitely NOT cold water fish. They are temperate fish but unfortunately they were wrongly classified as cold water because when single tailed goldfish were first imported into the West it was immediately apparent that they survived happily in tanks in the home without heaters and later they were found to over winter quite successfully even in frost prone areas. However the real test is that genuine cold water fish breed and grow in cold water, well below 60F, and quickly die if subjected to prolonged water temperatures much above 70. It is generally accepted that goldfish spawn best around 68F (yes I know that spawnings can occur in the high 50's but that is not the norm) and grow best between 72 and 85F. I often recount a story which happened to me some years ago. A "goldfish friend" insisted on giving me 8 young tropical Angel Fish which he had bred, 4 blacks and 4 golds as a thank you for taking him to Goldfish Society meetings. As I didn't have a tank available for them I put them in the fish house (a greenhouse) in a tank of baby Veiltail Goldfish where the water temperature was set at 75F with the intention of providing another tank for them the following weekend. All went well for several days but then we had a very sunny, hot day. I returned home from work, the water temperature in the tank had risen to 90F. All the baby Angels were dead; the Veiltail goldfish were fine, just hungry!!!!
Yes when I talk about "Quality" I mean show specimens, that is specimens whose external structure and appearance closely resemble the ideal Standard for the variety plus their perceived breeding potential as evidenced in their pedigree.
I do not refer to $10.00 fish from Wal-Mart - they are simply very poor quality commercial imports although from a health point of view they could well prove to be super pets and hardy "fancy" goldfish. The difference I guess is the same as that between top-ranking pedigree dogs and mongrels. For example I buy my seed (breeders) Ranchu as 2 to 3 inch babies direct from the breeder in Japan. No middlemen, agents, wholesalers, retailers etc., etc. are involved but even so they cost me the equivalent of $3500.00 a pair including shipping to the UK but their quality shines through when you see their breeding results.
David, I don't quite understand how much of the American email system works as emails are often returned to me marked "over quota" or something similar whenever I send emails with photo attachments to members of the Breeders' Social. I sent one the other day which included some pics of my baby Ranchu, Orandas and Veiltails. Did you receive it and if so what did you think of the fish. Overall I had a reasonable year. Got off to a bad start as I was hospitalised but still manager to hatch 23,000 fancy goldfish fry from 15 spawnings (5 x Ranchu; 1 x Jikin; 1 x Tosakin; 2 x calico Veiltails; 2 x metallic Veiltails; 1 x Orandas, 1 x Bristol Shubunkins and 2 x Experimental but hoping for better things next year as always. All being well I will be at the Breeders' Social in 2009 and look forward to seeing you there BUT back to these deep frozen Fancy Goldfish you are trying to engineer. There really ought to be some ground rules in that the fish used must be truly FANCY goldfish of an acceptable quality to serious hobbyists. Without appearing to be too rude I would guess that the pics of your fish over wintering are of low grade examples collected from the local wholesaler. I think you should earmark $10,000 to purchase a few pairs of good quality Ranchu, Orandas and Ryukin for the experiment. Perhaps members of this forum who still consider Quality Fancies to be cold water fish would contribute to their purchase? It is unlikely that these fish would have experienced water temperatures much below 65F but no matter, let them go under ice to prove the point: their finnage will fungus and shred and their swim bladders will fail but no worries this is a well intentioned objective (and none of my money is involved) but have another $10,000 standing by just in case the first lot die within a month and before the experiment has had a chance to bear fruit. But seriously David save the $10/20,000 and just spend a fraction of that on keeping them warm. You are not the first to think of going down the cold route, it's been happening here in the UK for at least 30 years to my knowledge. I'm all for people trying it as it means they come back to me every May to restock!!!!!!
Have just obtained some excellent Chinese calico Orandas, commercial but good quality commercial, and have some super line bred calico and mock metallic Veiltails which unfortunately from the UK show bench point of view can no longer be shown as Veils as they have developed too much head growth. The master plan is to combine the Veil and Oranda features of these fish in 2009 to meet at least in part the Breeders' Social's Azumanishiki challenge.
Hope we're still friends - perhaps you had better let other forum members know that I'm nowhere near as bad as I sound - it's just that I'm a total self opinionated Goldfish nut!
Kindest regards
John

[thomasn]

:s_wow: take it easy bro

[Ichthius]

Hi John

It's great to have you here. 95% of my knowledge of Ranchu culling comes from days of picking your brain and I really believe I internalized the lessons. At this years social I did the entire lot of Matsuyama by myself and was very please with the results.

While out in the yard today I got to look at the fish coming out of the ice. It looks like all the Mita Ranchu have done well, as have the lionheads, bubble eyes and over at my friends house 4 of Steve's Jikins are also doing well.

If I ever get Ranchu of the Quality you are working with I doubt I'd put them out for the winter. We just can't get them or I can't afford them!

Email me the Pictures to david lains at gmail dot com (no spaces) and I'll post them up to the breeders social folder for you. The mail group only allows text or a few pictures.

Here are my pictures from this years meeting:
http://goldfishgarage.blogspot.com/2008/09/ranchu-breeders-social-xii.html
http://picasaweb.google.com/DavidLains/RanchuBreederSSocial12#
http://www.americangoldfish.org/new_page_5611211.htm

I can't wait to see you at the meeting next year, there were a million things I had planned on discussing with you.

[cowiche ponder]

Sorry disagree. You have some beautiful COLD WATER fish in the States so if cold water fish is the goal surely better to keep them. It's difficult enough breeding quality fancy goldfish, to breed "hardy" ones will only be achieved through lowering the quality aimed for. With the difficulties you guys now face importing fancy goldfish surely the time as come for you all to concentrate on quality before it's too late!
John

I would much rather see a HARDY quality fish than one that I have to worry if the heater decides to go out and it's not caught for a day or so. Nothing worse than paying $100 (or a whole lot more) for a fish only to have it die. Give me hardy

[bekko]

The diversity of goldfish varieties creates a very diverse hobby and is one of their most appealing characteristics. I am a proponent of finding varieties and individual fish which fit your own personal set-up (tank/pond/bowl), your personal taste, and the resources (time and money) you want to invest. Getting the wrong fish for a given situation is a recipe for disaster. The right fish is a joy.

-steve

[Veil Gal]

We have had a particularly long, cold, icy and snowy winter here in upstate New York. So far I have lost two edonishiki and I have a red/white ranchu that is showing signs of dropsy. These fish are in a 300 gallon rubbermaid stock tank that is sunk in the ground and has an electric tank de-icer. The four wakin in this pond show no signs of stress. I am very sorry to have lost two lovely edos. Has anyone had success in zone 5 and colder with fancies outside year round?? If so, which varieties? I am very happy with the wakin.
John Hubschman said he was working on cold hardy orandas, I think. I know he also has bred ranchus for a long time. Are you on this board, John???

[medhrse]

I live in the San Gabriel Mountains Southern Cal. around 5000 ft We had 4 ft of snow at x-mas power outage ( so my pumps quit working) we could not even find the ponds for a week. All my fish survived!! A mix of Koi , Shubunkin , Mesquito fish , Ryukin , Comets . Once I could get to them where frozen 6" thick in some spots . Was worst storm in 10 yrs for this area ! Now 105 as I'm sitting here .