Mud Ponds?

[Fishman43]

Coming from the Koi side of top view pond fish I began to wonder. Would fancy GF (TVR specifically) benefit from grow out in mud bottom ponds the way koi do? I understand the pond depth would have to be very shallow, but that is doable. This may be total GF blasphemy to ask, but I thought I might try the question anyway.

[TheTruth]

all goldfish thrive in mud ponds in terms of size and color but if you put too much mud in you will never see them

[kendal]

i keep my fish in a concrete pond, but it has gravel base and naturalized plants. three years into it and i think it qualifies as mud bottomed. the water is mechanically and biologically filtered through a laguna pressure filter, uv sterilized and run back through a small live plant/bog filter and the pond is stocked with japanese trap door snails and freshwater clams. the water is clear, but the pond is otherwise in a pretty natural and wild state. i can see the fish not hiding in plants just fine (usually just smaller fish hide).

my findings is that the fish do far better here than in any of my indoor ponds and tanks (that may reflect on me and my indoor setup). mortality is all but non existent and the fish are all fat and the color is great (however, white fish get yellow heads and fins from the algae which i think is very pretty). my red tosakins are actually red, red like fire engines. young fish grown about twice as fast in this pond as in the indoor fry tanks and i don't not feed the small fish in the pond—rarely feed the adults. i feed more because its is fun than because the fish need food. they only eat a few pellets before losing interest which makes me think they are not hungry—that and the masses of poop i see.

unlike koi, the GF tend to stay out of the mud. they graze the walls and plants, but don't root in the mud much which keeps sediment clouding down. i would not throw extra mud in—sand or gravel maybe. the mud will come by itself. it is not the mud but everything that grows in the wild and natural ecosystem that is the great boon and that will happen if the water is good and there is sunlight—substraite and aquatic plants will speed and multiply it.

the only downside i see is more a food and temperature issue. in early spring the water heats up and the fish begin to feed on small snails, insects and worms, then the temps invariably drop with their bellies full of protein and many get sick. i have made it a habit of feeding low-protein antibiotic food in spring as a prophylactic. spring ick is near impossible to control in a mud pond. if the fish go into winter healthy it is not a real problem and it quickly passes. i also use a tarp to warm the pond in winter and spring to get past through the 50°-60° temp range which is where i see the danger—it is only dangerous because you cannot control the feeding. if you remove your fish during winter you bypass the only downside i have experienced and it is a small one.

oh, there is a major downside. have you ever cleaned out a mud bottom pond? that is a stink that won't come off your hands for a week—thankfully it is only a rare task.

i may be mistaken, but i think the natural habitat of carp in in mud bottomed ponds not glass tanks;)

[Corrie]

Watch temps with shallow water. Down here at the end of the world, a shallow pond will cook everything in it.

[kendal]

so true!

summer temps are a problem i had to deal with too. my pond is full sun all day and summer temps here top 100°. so i built my pond 28" deep and i keep 3/4 of the surface covered in plants to shade the water. Water temps only reach low 80°s in july and august. aeration and circulation in summer is a must to keep O2 levels up and water sweet.

depth, shade, deep water circulation in summer and depth, sun exposure, protection from cold air (tarp) and surface circulation in the winter.

where i live you could not have an unprotected outdoor pond shallower that 18" (winter or summer). otherwise it is a question of how do you like your fish, boiled or frozen?

[johnatoranchu]

Coming from the Koi side of top view pond fish I began to wonder. Would fancy GF (TVR specifically) benefit from grow out in mud bottom ponds the way koi do? I understand the pond depth would have to be very shallow, but that is doable. This may be total GF blasphemy to ask, but I thought I might try the question anyway.

Remember, quality Koi are not grown on in just any old mud pond. Particular attention is given to the mineral content. "Wild" ponds are fine for run-of-the-mill goldfish but useless for our "fancy" varieties.
John

[Fishman43]

Remember, quality Koi are not grown on in just any old mud pond. Particular attention is given to the mineral content. "Wild" ponds are fine for run-of-the-mill goldfish but useless for our "fancy" varieties.
John

Are they useless because the GF don't forage in the mud the way carp/koi do, or is it for a different reason?

I worked at an aquaculture facility on CA for a few years that raised food and game fish for live sales and pond stocking (striped bass, catfish, bass LM&SM, bluegill, etc). Mant of these fish did not root in the mud either but the micro organisims found in the water column over a mud bottom couldn't be equaled for fish growth and health.

I know koi ponds in Japan are high in monmorilinite (sp?) clays which can be bought and added to soils anywhere. However there are plenty of koi farms here in the U.S. as well as your side (Koi UK LTD comes to mind) of the pond that grow spectacular fish on whatever soil types they have.

So I thought I would pose the question(s) here. The temps are definately a concern in such a shallow body of water, but they not a problem that couldn't be overcome.

Any other thoughts on mud bottom ponds for GF grow out?

[nygold]

If I'm not mistaken mud ponds are more than just a hole in the ground.
I think they have a certain soil and or clay type.
Some also get seeded with different types of fertilizers.

[kendal]

i don't know John, i think there are some real benefits to a "wild" pond. granted i am not talking about a large and true "wild" pond that one would raise bass in, or even koi for that matter. my reference was to a pond that had controlled water quality but also had a wild ecosystem of plants, algae, insects, mollusks—basically an endless supply of fresh live food growing in the actual pond itself. "wild" was a poor choice of adjectives on my part—"naturalized" would have been better.

My set up that i was describing is an 8' diameter concrete pond with a gravel bottom. i added some potted plants and let nature do the rest. it is not "wild", but it is "natural" in comparison to the tanks and tub setups i have in my "fish room".

my experience is that no matter how many water changes i do indoors, how many feedings and how good the quality of that food is, the naturalistic system grows the fish faster, with deeper colors and fewer mortalities (maybe a reflection on my ineptitude as much as mother nature's skill). i attribute this to the variety and constant supply of fresh live foods which the naturalistic pond fish get to eat slowly and all day long—something which cannot be replicated by me personally indoors. there are disadvantages such as more parasites which are always present in an exposed system but a healthy fish can usually keep these in check.


i think john is completely right where a show fish is concerned as there are many things that could go wrong in a naturalized environment and having control over the feeding is vital to groom a show fish, but for conditioning seed stock for spawning or for keeping "pet" fish, i think the more natural pond has some advantages, one of which is ease—don't have to trust the neighbor kid to feed the fish when on vacation.

i attached photos of my outdoor setup. if you look closely you can see a ranchu pond cleverly hidden from my wife in the middle of the garden. there is a large UV pressure filter in the far corner. it has a bog filter and evaporative cooler (planted tired fountain), a water chiller (40ft of deeply buried pipe), automatic feeders (algae, snails and insects), 100% sun rated UVA and UVB light for color enhancement on an automatic schedule with a moon light, a summer shade that retracts in winter (water lilies), automatic cleaners (snails and clams)—it's a pretty high-tech system that took millions of years to design :) water quality is perfect and i have not done a real water change in 4 years.


it's not a exactly a "wild" clay pond, but when you look inside, it is pretty close in some ways. i have been happy with it overall and it fits my lifestyle. i do have the more traditional set up as well as there are just some things that a naturalized pond would be "useless" for as John was saying. that's what is so great about this pursuit is there are so many ways to get from A to B and they are all right and all wrong depending on who is practicing them.

[Fishman43]

Thanks for sharing Kendal. I like your high tech system designed over millions of years. I am curious about your buried pipe chiller,can you explain?

[kendal]

our average yearly high is just over 100°f and our average low 0°f. our average mean temp is 53°f, if i remember correctly, meaning if you dig down deep enough the ground will more or less be that temperature year round—i am simplifying. point is that the ground that the 40ft of pipe going between the pond and the filter is relatively cool in summer (and relatively warm in the winter). the water returning to the pond is slightly cooler than the surface water in the summer—in other words chilled. it's not as effective or precise as an electric chiller, but it's free. in the full heat of the summer, the pond water is about 20°f cooler. today is mid 90s with full sun and the water is mid only 70s. by contrast the water in my daphnia/mosquito larvae tub, which is uncirculated, but in the shade most of the day, is in upper 80s (if it was in the sun, it would likely be near 100°f).

i was being sarcastic about all the high-tech features of my outdoor system—i have a poor and very dry sense of humor. i built the outdoor setup for aesthetic reasons, but always had fish in mind. unfortunately i knew little about the needs of the fish i now keep (ranchu and tosakin) when i built it and most of the info/spec i was able to get related to keeping koi or single tailed GF varieties.

as mentioned, i have an indoor system too. i find the fish behave and grow differently in each system. i won't try to divine what is going on in a goldfishes mind or any state of hapiness, but they are far more active in the outdoor system. the shape (round) and size (600gal) probably has a lot to do with it i am sure. the fish are much more active outdoors—living in a "salad bowl" with constant opportunities to feed all along the water column keeps them engaged in foraging all day. the variety of food and the enrichment of foraging is something i cannot replicate indoors.

the main disadvantage is fish will grow out differently. because of the extreme heat and cold, the pond was built deep—too deep for grooming ranchu—live and learn. young fish will grow longer with thinner tails, and weak fins will have a tendency to collapse or fold under from the constant forward swimming. mature fish with strong tails will more or less stay the same. my fish also spawn better for me if kept outdoors. maintenance is far less frequent but when required, it is a mess, but i love water gardening and rather enjoy it finding it relaxing.

if i had the space and money it would be nice to have a greenhouse of large and shallow ranchu grooming ponds on an aquaponic system—a good medium ground. i am very envious of some of the fish houses people on this forum have.

[Fishman43]

Thanks Kendal,

I as well have a very dry sense of humor and fully understood and appreciated your jokes. In particular the hidden from the wife part, although the millions of years to develop high tech system got a chuckle as well.

I was hoping/looking for more details on how you run the water through the burried pipe (convection, magdrive pump(adds heat), etc), how deep you burried (I think our winter lows here in NH are close to yours), is the pipe burried in a long trench or in one big hole, what type of pipe, etc. Basically if I wanted to try and duplicate this how did you do it.

I work with farmers for the USDA and we have a couple of projects here in NH with farmers using "high tunnels", basically cheap unheated greehouses. They are able to grow cold weather crops (spinach, lettuce, broccoli, etc) through the winters here in NH. I was thinking if those leafy greens can survive our cold (coldest month is Jan. with an average min. temp. of 13.1F) than a high tunnel and some burried pipe may be just the ticket.

[kendal]

the pond has a bottom drain which i keep capped in lieu of using the surface skimmer (would reverse in winter if i did not cover the pond).

there is 1" PCV from the pond to an in-line mag driven solids pump. then i have laguana UV pressure filter. it is big enough for a pond 4 times the size—size matters in my opinion. the pipe varies from 30"+ deep slopping to to 18" before it elbows and breaks the surface to reach the filter and pump. deeper would have been better, but i have rocky soil and called it good as is. i wrapped rain gutter deicing coils around the pipe in case they ever froze, but then have never done that to date—even when the pump broke last january. there are 2 return lines of 3/4" pvc (one to fountain and one a bottom outlet. each controlled with a valve to adjust flow.)

i cover the pond with a tarp in the winter and put a clear garbage bag over the fountain itself. i first covered the pond to protect the fountain from ice, but realized what a nice greenhouse it makes. air temps inside the tent in the day are a balmy 50-60°f when outside temps are 10°f if there is sun. water temps are about 50°f, maybe a little lower, which is good considering it would otherwise be frozen 10" thick at times. the lilies keep any leaves that are still on when i cover the pond and the half-hardy aquatics over winter just fine. without a tent there is not enough warmth in the ground to keep it ice free.

the first two years i did not cover the pond, just kept the fountain running to keep the pipes open and a hole in the ice for gas exchange. the fish were fine, the fountain suffered chips and cracked. so, goldfish are more hardy than concrete fountains. there is a butterfly that has been out there for 2.5 years as well as tosakin—neither are supposed to be very hardy but are doing just fine.

one advantage we have is we have far more sun than you do. and it is sunniest when it is coldest here. a passive solar water heater would do well here for bumping temps up a bit, but the tarp does just fine. instead of a tarp, i have thought about buying a cheap dome tent and cutting out the bottom. this would give me a nice access door with a zipper!

mistakes i made were not having a gravity fed way to drain the pond. not keeping my bottom and surface skimmer lines separate. the pond is overly deep which makes it harder to clean—my face all but hits the water when i am reaching for something on the bottom. i could have gotten away with 16-18" seeing as how i cover it for the winter.

hope that helps. if i missed something let me know.

mind you, it is an ornamental pond first and i would do some things different if it was only for fish, but there is not way a back yard full of square ranchu ponds or rubbermaid tubs would have passed the design standards review board (wife).

[Fishman43]

I have the very same design standards review board. Luckily I am "in the country" (review board comments not mine) and have a little over 1 acre of dirt under my abode. So subtracting our lawn, garden, house, etc. I probably have ~1/4 acre of "open" ground to try to pass before the board.

At what water temps do you stop feeding your GF?

[kendal]

i pay more attention to the the way the fish are acting than the actual temps. they will quit begging for food in the mid 60s. by then i am on low protein food and have really slowed feeding. in spring i start feeding as soon as they start coming to the surface and i start with a low protein antibiotic koi food i get from the LFS. Antibiotic because they tend to struggle more in spring. their immune systems are weak until the water warms up and i think the parasites wake up first. i like to give the advantage to the fish.

side note, in early spring the fish float to the surface and sun themselves just 1/4 inch below surface. first time i say this i thought they were dead from a distance. the tosakin don't do this but it seams to be something all the large ranchu do.

you might try a more formal kitchen garden with ponds like i did to please the review board. you can create a small micro climate that might extend your growing season a week or so for your garden using the ponds as heat sinks. also if you plan your plumbing well you can water the garden with the fish water and refill the ponds(s) with fresh water. not quite aquaponic, but both the fish and plants will be better for it. just attach a hose to the back flush outlet of the filter and water the garden with the filthy filter water—veggies would love it.

if you have raccoons, which i am sure you do, make the pond raised like mine and drop too deep for them to wade immediately. won't stop them, but makes it more difficult. a big dog is the only sure fix to keep the raccoons from fishing.

the local botanical garden has a huge pond, maybe 3/4 acre. it is stocked with red comets rather than koi. absolutely stunning to see a huge red cloud of fish. if you are going to use fancy goldfish, i would not recommend your pond(s) are that large;)

draw up you plans and post them. sure you would get better feedback than i could give you. there are a lot of pros on this forum i with i would have consulted before pouring cement.

[Fishman43]

Reviving this thread. These are photos I found of a koi farm in the UK that show my rough idea of how I would like to build some ponds (still waiting on design board approval). The ponds would be shallower for the GF, but I also have the koi fry from Bucks County Koi to grow out. I am on sandy loam so will need to add a fair amount of sodium bentonite to the bottom to seal the water in, but I think it is very possible to make this work.

[small_ranchu]

I have heard a lot about mud pond. I am new to this and want to know how it works?
-how do u do water change?
-filteration?
-air circulation?
Thank you.

[Fishman43]

For my plans/purposes I will not do filtration, that means stocking the pond accordingly with the proper amount of fish to water.

Water changes/drainage will be done with a stand pipe, so water added at one end causes water to overflow/outflow through the stand pipe at the other end. Think a big L standing in the pond with the water level at/just below the top. A pipe running like this L__________ from the bottom of the L through to outside of the pond (I have a slight slope that will allow for the outlet to come out of the ground) into a drainage ditch. If I didn't have the slope I would just use a sump pump in a large bucket or plastic barrel with screen to prevent fish suction when I needed to drain the water. But really the idea with mud ponds is to not have to change the water, just add water when evaporation/seapage has happened.

Air will be added with a pond master air pump and large air diffusers just like we do in our tanks already, only bigger.

It can get as fancy as you like, think big fancy koi ponds in back yards with waterfalls and all or Kendal's nifty fountain/pond. But I am going more for function than looks.

[nygold]

Is there a certain type of mud or clay you use or just soil?

[small_ranchu]

http://www.sturgismaterials.com/bentonite.htm

[Fishman43]

Depends on your soil.

If you google "web soil survey" you will find the NRCS (Natural Resources Conservation Service) online soils maps (or click here: http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm). It navigates similar to a map program (google maps, mapquest, etc) then you can select your house/property with the AOI (Area Of Interest) and get a soils report. My property is on sandy silt, which I know (from my training and job, I studied Agricultural Science in school) is a fast draining soil. So even though I have a relatively shallow water table, my ponds wouldn't hold water all the time.

So I will be adding Sodium Bentonite clay to the soil to increase water holding capabilities (check here for decent information and application rates: http://www.sturgismaterials.com/bentonite.htm). You want to make sure you get Sodium Bentonite and not one of the other bentonite clays as they don't expand as much and provide as good of a pond seal, plus the sodium bentonite is supposed to be the same mud in the Japanese soils that make their koi so darn great. Locally I had to call a couple of well drilling companies to find the product as it does not occur naturally in my area (it comes from out west, Wyoming, Montana area I think). The well companies here use it for plugging/capping wells before they pour the concrete on top.

Dan W.

[kendal]

For my plans/purposes I will not do filtration, that means stocking the pond accordingly with the proper amount of fish to water.


have you considered doing a basic bog filter? basically just pumping the water and letting it pass over the roots of some plants. you could go one step further and make those plants edible for a aquaponic system. lettuce, watercress and other leafy greens make great filters for removing organics and they taste good too. hyacinth, duckweed, frog bit and water lettuce also do a fine filtration job as well as provide some cover and shade in the summer.

be sure to show us pics of the build.

[Fishman43]

I have considered that, even found this info ( http://www.fishfarming.com/duckweed.html ) on using duckweed as a filter and food source (for tilapia in this case), I know the couple of TVR I put outside cleared the duckweed off the water surface it a week this summer.

AS soon as I get design board approval (not sure I even can consider myself a voting member of that board), I will provide updates. When/ if I do get appoval and construct starts I will certainly provide photos!