Fry update day (6)

[nygold]

Well here are just a few of the 229 fry.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/8-17-102.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/8-17-103.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/8-17-106.jpg

[elusiveracer]

Lookin' good so far.

[Fishman43]

You counted 229 fry!?!

[nygold]

Lookin' good so far.
Today 04:59 PM
Thanks
You counted 229 fry!?!

Yeah I was moving them from the tub they are in to a small
holding tub so I can clean out thier main tub.
I could only do a few at a time so I figured I would count them.
So yeah I counted them.
If you look at the last picture you can see the orange looking stuff inside them it's Brine Shrimp.

[James M.]

That is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

[Fishman43]

I tried counting my angelfish fry one time by snapping a photo from above then trying to count, my final end amount grown out was so much different then the fry stage I have never tried again. I guessing moving them a few at a time makes it easier though.

[nygold]

I think my end number is going to be far from 229 as of now though I only lost one fry in 4 days and that one didn't die I kind of killed it.
I lost about 8 or 10 in the first 24 hours after hatching and it's been pretty good since then. I'm thinking of splitting the fry into 2 different tubs. I'm affraid of making a mistake and wiping out the entire brood.
Anyone have an easy way of transfering fry from one container to another?
I change as much water as I can every day but after 3 days or so the bottom of the tub needs to be cleaned. Right now I don't have the room to set up 2 tubs.

[Fishman43]

Anyone have an easy way of transfering fry from one container to another?


smallish siphon hose or a turkey baster works for me.

[nygold]

Thanks fishman I use a turkey baster to feed them and to suck out as much scuz that is on the bottom of the tub. Last time I moved them I used a little shrimp net. It just seems less stressfull than getting sucked up a hose or baster. While I have your ear do you know how long the fry can be left unattended. I want to go away for the weekend can they be left unfed fo 2 days?
Thanks,
Don

[BruceP]

Don,,, I think you'd be really taking a chance leaving them for 2 days unfed this young.

[nygold]

Don,,, I think you'd be really taking a chance leaving them for 2 days unfed this young.

Yeah Bruce I think your right. I cancelled my weekend trip.
It's not so much the fry I was worried about, I have a good thing going right now with my 2 brine shrimp cultures. Every time I start a new culture I write on a piece of tape the day and time I started the culture. I'm in a rhythm right now and I don't want to get out of it. I hit a snag in the begining because I couldn't find a 1 liter bottle and had to use a water bottle.
I think the ridges on the sides of the bottle screwed up the culuture some how I had a VERY low hatch percentage in the water bottle.
I replaced it with another 1 liter bottle and now I'm back in action.

[Fishman43]

Two days is a long time. I just bought one of these to try out so I don't have to coach my wife through brine shrimp hatching when I take a work trip next time. It is called a continuous hatch'n'feed

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3694/hatchnfeedpc8.jpg

[nygold]

WOW that's quite a contraption.
Please let us know how it works if you get one.

[Fishman43]

I already have it, plan on setting it up this weekend to test with some angelfish fry.

[BruceP]

I have one. You may notice I dont applaud its virtues... >:)

[nygold]

It looks cool but buy looking at it I cant figure out how it works.
Also how do you keep the saltwater from escaping with the Shrimp?

[kendal]

I have one. You may notice I dont applaud its virtues... >:)

tell us more.

i have debated getting one so there is constant food when i am at work or heaven forbid sleeping. not so much as a primary food source, just as a sort of back up and in between manual feedings.

fishman, do keep us updated on your experience too.

[BruceP]

Kendal...... That is the best use for it that I see.... I just never got the hang of using it I guess. It seemed like it was hard to tell how the bs were doing. I may drag it out again and play with it some more on the next spawn.

[nygold]

2 weeks and still going strong.
Holding steady at 229.

[sanggarra]

Post pictures! :D

Love to see how dem babies have grown.

[nygold]

2 week old fry
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2weeks8.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2weeks6.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2weeks5.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2weeks3.jpg

[nygold]

The lab.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2weeks12.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2weeks11.jpg

[sanggarra]

Wow, they have deep body already LOL!

[nygold]

Wow, they have deep body already LOL!

I don't know if that's good or bad. Unfortunately I have a day job so they don't get anything to eat from 6:30am to 4pm. They get a BBS feeding at 6, then from 4 O'clock on when ever they start to empty out (poop) then I fill them back up. I may feed them 4 or 5 times between 4pm and 10pm.
I'm sure this isn't what the experts do but it's the best I can do without leaving my job. Who knows I could have invented the next great way to raise fry. (1 feeding, rest, power feed for 6 hours, rest, repeat).

[Pokerfish]

Nice frys and pic, grats :yess:

[elusiveracer]

Still looks great, have you culled any?

[sanggarra]

nygold,
I am in the same exact situation... LOL!
1 feeding before work then multiple very small feedings till almost midnight, depending on how hungry they are. If they appear slightly disinterested or show signs of full (not agressively going after food or spit out) I stop feeding.

I just ordered the Dazs auto feeder as recommended by members here and will set that up for feeding every 4-6 hours, hopefully that will be much better. I'll just come home and feed them treats (BW, spirulina flakes) and stuff (vege, peas, etc) the auto feeder is not good for.

I believe BBS gives them a couple of hours of grazing with salt in the water to keep the BBS alive, no?

[nygold]

Still looks great, have you culled any?
No not yet. I just found out who the Mother fish is and I won't know who the father(s) could be until they get there color.
Non were born with gross deformities nor did I get any with a single tail.
The Dads could be a red/black ryukin, red ryukin, and or one of my 2 blue dragon eyes. Who knows they each could have fertilized a few.
The Mother fish is a Butterfly Panda which is now all white.
I'm hoping that the blue dragon eyes have something to do with the fry then I have a better idea of what to look for.
I was thinking of keeping any with a nice butterfly tail for top view and a nice upright tail for side view.
Ya think that's a good idea?:youtellme:

[nygold]

I believe BBS gives them a couple of hours of grazing with salt in the water to keep the BBS alive, no?

Sanggarra I look at it this way I can only do what I can do, the fish don't seem to be undernourished and it's not a race.
The truth is Im just happy to be able to keep these things alive.

[elusiveracer]

No not yet. I just found out who the Mother fish is and I won't know who the father(s) could be until they get there color.
Non were born with gross deformities nor did I get any with a single tail.
The Dads could be a red/black ryukin, red ryukin, and or one of my 2 blue dragon eyes. Who knows they each could have fertilized a few.
The Mother fish is a Butterfly Panda which is now all white.
I'm hoping that the blue dragon eyes have something to do with the fry then I have a better idea of what to look for.
I was thinking of keeping any with a nice butterfly tail for top view and a nice upright tail for side view.
Ya think that's a good idea?:youtellme:

I guess it's up to you to figure out what you want in the fish overall. Since we don't know the exact parent fish as long as you have space for them just keep doing what you're doing and see what happens. :)

[nygold]

The parents the first one is the female the rest are the males.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/8-25-1013.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/8-25-102.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/bigryukin10-09.jpg
There is one more male I'll try to find a picture of him.

[elusiveracer]

Hopefully those ryukins didn't join the party. >:) I think the only way we'll know for sure is when the eyes pop but I haven't bred demekins/telescopes before. :youtellme:

[sanggarra]

The adult demekins are all beautiful!

I am sure the babies will grow up nice too. :)

I have zero breeding experience, have seen them in our family tanks when I was a kid, but no part in taking care of them. I like black moors, especially with butterfly tails, following your progress is great.
Keep the updates coming.

[nygold]

Minor setback with the fry yesterday.
I set up a 40 gallon tank so I can move the fry with potential into and the light I was using to sort out the fry fell into the tub they are in.
It was a big spotlight bulb and when it hit the water it exploded.
Luckily for me it exploded under water and there wasn't any flying glass.
But it did kill about 6 fry.
I guess sometimes we take a step backwards.

[BruceP]

Sucks to be a fry but its good you didnt get glass in the eye or sumptin. I moved some pleco fry yesterday and mushed two of them trying to catch them with a net. :badidea: I finally got out the turkey baster. :me:

[elusiveracer]

Sounds like it could have been a lot worse. At least you still have around 200 fry.

[nygold]

update 3 weeks
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/3weeks13.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/3weeks16.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/3weeks18.jpg

[small_ranchu]

oops change a lot since last few days.

[nygold]

That's them Fred they just look different from the side.

I picked out about 2 dozen and put them in a 40 gallon tank.

I pretty much did what you told me, I kept all the ones with the tails that were opened up (top view) and kept a few that had a nice side view.
The rest are still in the tub.

[BruceP]

Kewl!!!!!! Comin' along nicely...... keep shoveling the food in them... LOL:me:

[nygold]

1 month update: A few are starting to show color already.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month4.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month3.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month2.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month1.jpg

[elusiveracer]

:clap: Should start to get more defined soon.

[sanggarra]

One on top right may be a demekin like mommy! :D

[kendal]

One on top right may be a demekin like mommy! :D

my money is on not. none of these look like telescope eyes to me. i would think you would see much larger eyes and they would be poking out by now. i have never bred demekin, but have had telescoped fry pop up in tosakin and ryukin spawns and it was obvious in much smaller fish than these.

am i wrong? really, i don't know.

since you mare making culling judgments from above, show us some top-views. the two right fish almost look like tosakin from the side. should look nice from above.

[sanggarra]

I only know what I read... :D

From Joe Smartt's, generally finnage characteristics are the earliest indicators to be able cull for from the first month, globe, celestial and other eye characteristics should be from 3 to 6 months, with color the slowest.

Based on that, I am not surprise if the 1 month old does not show significant eye characteristic of a telescope. But I haven't even bred before. So you can ignore every word above LOL!

[nygold]

I took some top-view pictures but didn't get a chance to load them into photobucket. I thought I read somewhere that it takes e few months for the eyes to start to pop. Out of the 200 or so fry I have left NONE show telescope eyes. You have to figure even a few would have the same eyes. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Someone on this site has to have bred telescopes before.

[suphi]

What do you feed them with now?

[nygold]

What do you feed them with now?

I just started crushed pellets, chopped up blood worms, and they still eat BBS. I tried crushing up flakes but they seem to spit them out so I stopped. By the way they are an inch long from nose to tail.

[nygold]

Top view shots
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-9-101.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-9-103.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-9-102.jpg

[Hondataeg6]

:yess: looking good, great job

[bekko]

It's not yet time for the eyes to protrude.

-steve

[nygold]

Thanks Steve from the little info I tried to gather on this it looks like it could take between 2 and 3 months to see any buldging eyes.
Is there any truth to this?

[afnaveils]

1 month update: A few are starting to show color already.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month4.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month3.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month2.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/1month1.jpg

The left one is calico. The telescopes are metallics, so its dad is most probably the ryukin.

[nygold]

6 week fry update
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-28-107.jpghttp://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-28-106.jpghttp://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-28-105.jpghttp://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-28-104.jpg

[small_ranchu]

wow, they are nice..

[Ranchufan16]

those are some nice look fry!!! great job!:worship:

[mikroll]

I thought I read somewhere that it takes e few months for the eyes to start to pop. Someone on this site has to have bred telescopes before.

I breed telescope. The eyes "pop" at 4 month. sometimes one and then a week later the other follows. But fefore that magic moment the look very much like normal eye shape and size.
hope that helps.

[kendal]

really?! it takes that long for the eyes to pop? the telescopes that have surfaced in my tosakin eyes are bulging at 1 month or sooner when the are a half inch (not including tail). i can usually tell before i can discern scales because they telescopes have dramatically larger eyes than the tosakin—the look bugged out even before they pop out. but then again, the telescope is not a trait that i should be seeing in tosakin to begin with so why should it follow conventions. your picks don't look like what i have seen "pop out" in my fry tanks.

will be interesting to see what happens. my money is still on the ryukin being the pop.

[nygold]

I breed telescope. The eyes "pop" at 4 month. sometimes one and then a week later the other follows. But fefore that magic moment the look very much like normal eye shape and size.
hope that helps.


Thanks Mikroll I knew somebody had to know.
I have a small clutch of about 2 dozen right now that are about 4 or 5 days old.
The batch in this update are most likely half telescope half ryukin. I don't know if there going to end up with telescope eyes or not. Maybe some, maybe none, maybe just popped out halfway. I don't know.

[nygold]

I breed telescope. The eyes "pop" at 4 month. sometimes one and then a week later the other follows. But fefore that magic moment the look very much like normal eye shape and size.
hope that helps.

Mikroll when you breed the telescopes to you keep the fry in shallow water or do anything special for the tails?
Thanks.

[mikroll]

Hi nygold,
I breed black moor, which are telescope eye form. I only breed them for my personal pleasure. they live out doors in a 7000 liter pond , depth 60-70 cm.
They remain outside all winter too. I guess I am luckly as they all have remained very dark rich black although I lost my best couple (age 7 year) this summer. the young in aquariums are at about 40-50 cm depth .( also outside).

[nygold]

Thanks Mikroll I have my fish indoors and the winter will be here soon I think I will be keeping them in a 40 gallon. I guess I'll start them in shallow water and work from there.
When I get a chance I'll start a new thread with pictures of the baby telescopes.

[nygold]

Fry update 2 months some are trying to go panda or tri.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2months15.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2months11.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2months8.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/2months6.jpg

[sanggarra]

Wow! They sure are growing nicely.
The 1st is coloring up very nicely and I love the long fins on the last 2.

Keep up the good work.

[sanggarra]

How many are you left with? Are you done culling for fins?

[nygold]

How many are you left with? Are you done culling for fins?

I have about 30 or so culls that are going bye bye this week and around 20 that have nice fins and all.

[nygold]

I think these are the only 2 fish I'm going to keep from this batch.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/10-30-108.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/10-30-103.jpg

[Ranchufan16]

Beautiful Fish Nygold! I am very impressed! Too bad you don't live closer!

[nygold]

I didn't forget about you ranchufan I'm trying to figure out what is the latest time I can get these fish to the post office. I don't get home from work until 4ish. I don't know if thats too late for overnight shipping.

[Ranchufan16]

I didn't forget about you ranchufan I'm trying to figure out what is the latest time I can get these fish to the post office. I don't get home from work until 4ish. I don't know if thats too late for overnight shipping.

and you made my day:)!!!!! let me know when and let me know how much

[small_ranchu]

UPS is working until 6:00. You can drop the box at Sheepsheadbay station.

[Ranchufan16]

Top view shots
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-9-101.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-9-103.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/blueclaw92/9-9-102.jpg

gorgeous even in the small stage!!!!!!!!!

[nygold]

Ranchufan do me a favor and PM me and Fred (smallranchu) your address this way we can figure out the shipping charge. Then we can pick a date to ship these guys out. I'm leaving for Maine on Thursday and I wont be back until Sunday so this week is going to be a bit tuff. Oh my wife has a paypal account if that works for you. The shipping SHOULD be around the $50 range.

Don

[Ranchufan16]

Ranchufan do me a favor and PM me and Fred (smallranchu) your address this way we can figure out the shipping charge. Then we can pick a date to ship these guys out. I'm leaving for Maine on Thursday and I wont be back until Sunday so this week is going to be a bit tuff. Oh my wife has a paypal account if that works for you. The shipping SHOULD be around the $50 range.

Don

Ok, Sounds good. I will do that!

[fantail1]

Forgive me if I mave missed something, but 4 of the last 5 photos have joined tails. I assume these have been culled out?

[nygold]

Forgive me if I mave missed something, but 4 of the last 5 photos have joined tails. I assume these have been culled out?

It is what it is, these are half breeds to begin with so in theory they are all culls. But there are some nice looking fish in the bunch and some people myself included like to growout nice looking fish. I understand some people frown upon non-standard fish but I personally think you can learn alot from growing anything out.

[fantail1]

Fair enough, your call.

[Ranchufan16]

It is what it is, these are half breeds to begin with so in theory they are all culls. But there are some nice looking fish in the bunch and some people myself included like to growout nice looking fish. I understand some people frown upon non-standard fish but I personally think you can learn alot from growing anything out.

I'm with you Nygold, especially if you have the space, a fused tail on an other wise great fish in book is no reason to get rid of it. FOr me it is about the hobby and having fun, not show quality this and that, its about learning and growing and becoming even more knowledgable about the fish you have!!

[fantail1]

sure, of course, and everyone can do as they wish - my question is what do you learn from raising these fish? I can't see what there is that is different about them to justify raising them, except (in the UK) to give to the local pet shop. If there is something else to them, then I could understand.

In another post there was agreement that there should be honest critique of fish that are posted. My comment is in that light.

[Ranchufan16]

sure, of course, and everyone can do as they wish - my question is what do you learn from raising these fish? I can't see what there is that is different about them to justify raising them, except (in the UK) to give to the local pet shop. If there is something else to them, then I could understand.

In another post there was agreement that there should be honest critique of fish that are posted. My comment is in that light.

Most certianly Fantail, for me, who is new to keeping fry, it helps me learn what temperature is best, what foods are best, what depths work best. I would rather learn on fry that are, good, but not the best, than on the best and loose them all. follow my drift? Yes the fish may be what most would consider a cull, but for someone like me who is used to keeping only adult fish, keeping fry is a way to broaden my knowledge of the hobby. and I believe that they actually are Nygold's culls, he had a picture up of the two he was going to keep and the rest he is getting rid of.

[nygold]

It's also a learning experience for me I never shipped fish before so this is a first for me. I hope it works out and Ranchufan16 doesn't get a box of water with flys buzzing around it.
Must be nice to have every fish one owns be of show quality.
Fantail1 I for one appreciate the criticism don't ever worry about hurting my feelings I welcome your input.


Don

[fantail1]

I wish all my fish were of show quality! I have 8 adult metallic fantails and they have produced probably 15 show quality fry from 10000+ hatched this year. The nacreous fantails (10 adults) produced NO show quality fry.

I can understand trying different techniques, but that would surely mean raising the spawning as several batches? Otherwise, the experiment takes years (as you only have one population to test on each year) and won't prove the (in my view well established) benefits of culling to improve food resources and space for the better quality fish.

Also, if you are working with one batch, why not just do the best you can for the ones you want? If the goal is to raise show quality fish then the art / science of culling is probably as important as anything else and you will see the benefits better as you reduce the population.

If the spawning is the very first one you have, then there is a lot to be learned (I am learning every year with my fish) but that still includes culling and spotting faults early only comes with knowledge of looking for them.

I fully understand the trial re shipping, but I thought that was a bi-product of having the fry, not that the fry were raised to trial the shipping. There are easier ways of doing that - a few common goldfish from the pet shop would do fine.

David

[nygold]

Fantail1 I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread but this was my very first spawn so I had alot to learn about raising fry.
I grew a bunch of them out to see what percentage of pandas I would get if I could get any at all. I culled out over 100 but it's (for me) very hard to cull a fish that really has no standard. As far as the shipping goes it's not exactly cheap so for the price of shipping atleast he's getting something that he wants.
Many of us are in the learning stage me included, just because Fred waved his magic wand and appointed me as one of his moderators doesn't mean I have any idea what I'm doing. Apparently I don't even know what a calico is:confuse:.

[fantail1]

That teaches me for making assumptions.

You probably made life harder for yourself by raising fry from a mix variety / scale group spawning. I wrote the following for another purpose a while back (never got finished, hence the references to photos, but no photos!) which I would be interested in comments on. It is intended as a handout for people interested in breeding their goldfish for the first time.

I also attach, if I have understood the technology, a couple of photos of this year's fish, for illustration.


Breeding Your Goldfish
When considering breeding your Goldfish you need to consider a few initial questions:
• Have you got both males and females in your stock? You can tell males in breeding condition by the existence of tubercles – white spots – on their gill plates and / or the front rays of their pectoral fins. Females tend to be rounder generally and much rounder when full of eggs, especially when viewed from above. [photos required]
• Do you have at least one, preferably more, spare aquariums or similar vessels of about 1.2m x .3m (they only need to be 15 cm deep)? You will need these to raise the fry.
• Goldfish lay hundreds, often thousands of eggs. This is because in the wild most eggs and fry will be eaten and they need large numbers so that a few reach maturity. Are you prepared to deal with the hundreds or thousands that you don’t want? Do you have somewhere to keep those that remain?
• What will you feed the fry? Given the potentially large numbers, you will be well advised to buy Brine Shrimp eggs and hatch them as an excellent food for the first few weeks. This could cost you £40 as well as being an additional task to deal with a couple of times a day. The alternative is to use other foods that often lead to slower growth, increased water pollution and consequential disease and death. At the end of a month on Brine Shrimp, the fry should be 2 cm long and suitable to be fed bloodworm or small pellets. [photo of brine shrimp hatching required]
So how do you go about it? The Spring is the best time to spawn fish, but it can be done at any time of the year. Separate the males and females and feed both heavily on protein rich foods until they come into condition., which should take about a month. Keep them at about 21C. When you are ready, perhaps a Friday evening, put the males (maximum 2 for each female) and the female in a bare tank, save for a heater, either a sponge filter or airstone and spawning mops made from colourfast nylon yarn cut to lengths and weighed down by lead. Ideally this tank will receive the morning sun. The male chases the female through the mops. He releases milt which is absorbed by the eggs which she releases through the stimulation of the chase and brushing against the mops.
The eggs are pin head sized, sticky and yellow hued but transparent. The fish may be finished by the time you get up so look closely as the eggs should be visible. If they have finished, remove the adults, keeping them separate or they may spawn again, and feed them well as they recover. If you don’t remove the adults, they will eat the eggs. If they don’t spawn in a couple of days; separate the adults, condition them again and try once more in a couple of weeks. [photos required]
The eggs will hatch in 3 – 4 days at 21C. Hotter or cooler will shorten or lengthen the hatching period but may also adversely affect the quality and health of the fry. Infertile eggs go white and fertile ones seem to disappear until black dots (the fry’s eyes) appear as they develop. When they hatch they hang onto the sides of the tank or the mops as they absorb their yolk sac. This will take 24 hours and in this time you start the Brine Shrimp hatchery.
Within a fortnight the fry should be approaching 1 cm and are ready for the first selection. Remember, the faster you remove the fry you don’t want, the better the prospects for the ones you do as they get cleaner water, more space and more food and the reduced crowding reduces the risk of disease. [photo required]
Remove all deformed fish, or if breeding twin tailed varieties, those with single tails, and any that cannot swim properly. As mentioned above, these would be eaten in the wild so you might want to add them to the adults’ tank and walk away for a while. Later selections can be for divided twin tails, body shape, twin anal fins and the correct deportment as the fish swims or rests in mid water.
Depending on the numbers of fish, the feeding regime and the space available, you will need to do regular or very regular water changes. If you have two tanks then swapping them into fresh water in the other tank twice a week will help until the fry are big enough to cope with filters and don’t need to be moved, but water changed instead; though splitting the fry into the two tanks is better still.
If you are breeding Metallic (eg gold, white) goldfish, then the fry will develop green coloured scales at about 3 weeks. They will change to yellow (often via black) sometime after they are 3 months old. Some never change colour. Others change to gold and then white. If you are breeding Calico fish, some will be pinkie white (called Matt as they have no reflective tissue in their scales) and won’t develop colour, others will be Metallic but will not change to gold and about half will be the Calico colours. You should remove the Matts and Metallics as soon as you can see them as they are not desirable adult fish. [photos required]
There is no getting away from it, to raise fry successfully is hard work – the fish need feeding morning and evening (and preferably more often than that) and water changes and selecting fry take time. You will appreciate the effort that went into producing the fish you have used for breeding. It is also immensely rewarding and satisfying and will introduce you to a new and exciting side to the hobby. [photos required]
If you are interested in learning more about breeding your fish, understanding the varieties of Goldfish and their colour types in more detail or simply want to talk to the most knowledgeable Goldfish keepers and breeders in the Country, why not join the Goldfish Society of Great Britain? Full details of how to join and the benefits of membership can be found at www.gsgb.co.uk

[nygold]

Thanks Fantail1 great read and excellent info maybe Fred can cut and past this to the top of the breeders forum and make it a sticky. Sorry for the extra work Fred but your off today.:)

While I have your ear or anyone elses for that matter I have a bit of an issued with my last spawn. I place 2 fish that I wanted to breed into a spawning tub and was able to have them spawn. But the female ended up throwing THOUSANDS of eggs all over. The bad news is it only looks like 10 or 20 percent ended up getting fertilized. I put meth-blue in the tank to keep the fungus down but there seems to just be too many eggs to keep the fungus at bay. I tried removing as many as I can with a pair of tweezers but that didn't workout so well. If all goes well they should be hatching sometime today if they are able to hatch at all. Any suggestions on how to move forward from here?

Don

[fantail1]

If you have 20% of thousands it is still plenty to work with and you often find there are more fertile eggs than you realise.

If we were a few days ago, I would have suggested a water change but if they are close to hatching, I would leave all alone. What size container are the eggs in? Do you have a filter or aeration? (please rememer the UK doesn't work on "40 Gallon breeder", that means nothing to me - dimensions in inches or cms will however).

In a few days the infertile eggs will disappear, but as you will be feeding the fry (newly hatched brine shrimp?) the water quality is always an issue. I know one UK breeder who reckons you have a week before you need a 100% water change as otherwise the combination of food and waste will poison the fry. I think that timescale is about right if you are feeding heavily. The good news is that with BS they will have grown enough to move them.

I use a rigid plastic kitchen sieve (not a net as they get caught in the folds) to scoop them up. Do some culling while they are out of the tank for any obvious faults and replace the tank water with clean, fresh, dechlorinated water of the same temperature.

Does that help?

David

[nygold]

Thanks David this is very helpful.
Yes I will be feeding newly hatched brine shrimp.
They are being kept in a 60 liter tub, picture a laundry basket without holes.
Roughly 30cmW x 60cmL x 30cmD.
I'm affraid to move the newly hatched fry they are so damn fragile I'll end up killing a bunch.

[fantail1]

that is making life hard for yourself!

Even water changes in a small container like that will be challenging.

Are the eggs on any spawning media? If so could you move them to other containers? Like 4 or 5 of them to split the fry up?

Truth is, with shallow water there is very little margin for error on water quality. You need to get the fry to say 6-7mm long asap and move / cull / 100% water change say twice a week.

Once they reach that sort of size they really can cope with moves - I do it every year.

[nygold]

I didn't have any problem with my last 2 spawns mostly because they were fairly small. Space is also an issue it would be nice to have 4 or 5 tubs set up for big spawns but I just dont have the space. That's not entirely true I have the space I just have to make the room. Some of the eggs are on a spawning mop but there are a bunch on the walls and the floor of the tub. It's hard for me to tell if there are any fertilized eggs on the floor and walls because there is green wall algae all over. I can clearly see some on the mop that are fertilized and some on the walls. I can only assume the ones on the floor that aren't covered with fungus are alive.

[Ranchufan16]

It's also a learning experience for me I never shipped fish before so this is a first for me. I hope it works out and Ranchufan16 doesn't get a box of water with flys buzzing around it.
Must be nice to have every fish one owns be of show quality.
Fantail1 I for one appreciate the criticism don't ever worry about hurting my feelings I welcome your input.


Don

I hope I don't get a box full of flies either!! LOL I'm sure you guys can do it without any problems, just see that the bags are nice and sealed:) I agree, not only is this an experiement in shipping but also in it for me is to try my skill at grooming on a not so expensive "cull" and see what happens instead of getting show quality fry and end up killing the whole lot. and yes Nygold I agree with you, Fantail1 you are very knowledgable and I appreciate you input as well!! These guys are a trial for me, I have the space and the tanks to let them grow out so if they end up being somehting fun, then I'll have some fun fish, if they end up being somehting ok, then my pond will have some new inhabitants!! LOL:exact:

[fantail1]

Don - If you can split the eggs up that will improve the chances of getting some of them through the first few weeks. How much brine shrimp will you be using? A teaspoon of eggs twice a day? That should give you plenty of food and give you the opportunity to practice on this spawning. Also, what are the parents? Do you know what you are looking for this time? Given the space confines this might be the ideal opportunity to practice culling.

Ranchu Fan, what do you plan to feed them on? If this is practice, what is the goal? As big as possible? The problem I have is keeping the tails slightly smaller than would be ideal when young. My fish get quite warm in summer and tend to grow over long tails as a result, but as a greenhouse is all I have, I have to put up with the problem. I also have a few fish living in the filters and as they aren't fed, they have disproportionate tail / body length ratios.

Can't wait for next Spring!

Enjoy!

David

[Ranchufan16]

Ranchu Fan, what do you plan to feed them on? If this is practice, what is the goal? As big as possible? The problem I have is keeping the tails slightly smaller than would be ideal when young. My fish get quite warm in summer and tend to grow over long tails as a result, but as a greenhouse is all I have, I have to put up with the problem. I also have a few fish living in the filters and as they aren't fed, they have disproportionate tail / body length ratios.

Can't wait for next Spring!

Enjoy!

David[/QUOTE]

Hey David!

I am going to play with the food, I am going to try different things on different ones, according to dan I am getting 7 butterfly crosses and 7 ryukin butterfly calioc crosses so I am going to keep them split, and feed one group strictly pellets and flakes, the other pellets and frozen food. I want to see what food provides better color. Also one will be kept in a deeper aquarium and the other in a shallower aquarium. and the list keeps going, sponge filter for one, off the back filter for the other. and light difference, I have a few different bulbs that I am going to try and see which one is better at bringing out color in the fish. So it is all an experiement, I'm kinda excited! I just hope the fry survive the trip!

Thanks!
Ian

[nygold]

Don - If you can split the eggs up that will improve the chances of getting some of them through the first few weeks. How much brine shrimp will you be using? A teaspoon of eggs twice a day? That should give you plenty of food and give you the opportunity to practice on this spawning. Also, what are the parents? Do you know what you are looking for this time? Given the space confines this might be the ideal opportunity to practice culling.


I think it's too late to split the eggs, a bunch hatched already and I have ALOT more that I thought I would have. I use (2) 1 liter bottles and alternate them so I have fresh BBS every day. I may have to double the amout judging by the amount of fry I have already. This time I know what I have I selected 2 ryukins. The male is a beauty and the female is so-so.
This should make culling a bit easier not that I know what I'm doing.:youtellme:
I'll have Fred over for a few drinks we'll have a cull party.

[fantail1]

Don - I know that problem. This year I had to do exactly the same thing and double BS production. Cost me a fortune! There are bound to be a lot of single and barely tri -tails - get them out asap. It may well reduce the population hugely, but don't worry about that. Far better to have 10 healthy growing fish than 100 stunts (to use Kendal's word)

Ian - looking forward to the feedback! What about green water? Can you add that to the mix? I found it was less successful than clear water - probably because I didn't know how many fish I was feeding! But as you will know how many are going into the tank, that won't be a problem for you.

Good luck

David

[Ranchufan16]

Ian - looking forward to the feedback! What about green water? Can you add that to the mix? I found it was less successful than clear water - probably because I didn't know how many fish I was feeding! But as you will know how many are going into the tank, that won't be a problem for you.

Good luck

David[/QUOTE]

Hadn't thought of that, I will see what I can do and let you know the results. I have heard good and bad and right now I have a TON of fry so I can try it out on a few different breeds. Thanks David!

[Ranchufan16]

SHipping was a success!!! All fish arrived safely, now to begin with the fun! Some neat ones in there, and thanks for the surprise Don! She's a beaut!