Tri-color breeding?

[sc569]

Has anyone used one of the tri-color fish to spawn with a wild type metallic?

I am curious to see what people have gotten.

If no one has done so, I will try to do this for spring of 2011.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I have one I bought in July and plan to use this healthy beast this holiday

[sc569]

I have one I bought in July and plan to use this healthy beast this holiday

Gary,

Is it one of the broadtails?

What is the sex and what are you plannig to use as a partner?

Might I suggest a wild type metallic veil? So, we will find out if the tricolor is dominant or recessive.

Interesting results and I think that I would be interested in playing.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I think it is a female, I will check when io do maintenance this weekend, I like the idea of crossing to a uncolored. I will srive to make that happen. BTW, I talked to Carlos the other night, he seems to be doing well

[sc569]

One more question.

Is the color stable? Has it changed in any way since you got the fish?

I will get in touch with Carlos soon.

[orandablue]

I just thought I would butt in because this is interesting topic. I crossed chocolate and blue and then in the F2 of this cross got two creamcicle and white mettallic, one of which got black in some spots becoming technically tri-colored! her black is sticking and she is an mettallic tricolor oranda! Don't know if this is how you make most tri-colors?? But I am planning on breeding her. Was just looking for tri-color orandas today but did not get any. Found blue ryukin instead and * all money gone. lol
~What would wild color bring to the table!?hmmmm or are you talking a different tricolor? i am talking big spots on mostly white.

[sc569]

Maybe that is what the tri-colors are! Rather surprising since they seem to be so robust.

Combinations of multiple recessives would tend to make the fish weak due to inbreeding depression.

But, this is possible as the 'black' always seems to be a pale blue in the tri-colors. I have never seen them in person so it is difficult to say.

However, a true chocolate with true blue (both are tetraploid recessive, I think) would turn out to be an all white metallic. The chocolate depresses the black pigment and the blue would depress the red pigment. So, there is no pigment left except the metallic iridophores.

My bet is on a new spotting gene/allele. Probably a dominant, like the one that produces sarassa or red/white.

[sc569]

Orandablue,

What was the color of the F1 progeny? All metallic wild type or something else?

Was the blue parent all blue or did it have some patches of bronze? The bronzing would indicate it is a green fish baseline with the sarassa depressing the red pigment in the blue patches. If so, this would explain your red/white F2 progeny.

[Cincy Ranchu]

One more question.

Is the color stable? Has it changed in any way since you got the fish?

I will get in touch with Carlos soon.

Color is very stable and the fish is very strong, I will get a video perhaps, full moon is coming

[orandablue]

Full moon indeed Cinci!
I am trying to figure this out...are you saying that the two recessive "colors" blue and chocolate have a dominant color "form" under them, red and white?

Yes the two F1s are bronze wild colored metallic. and the Blue metallic parent had the bronze patches. And the female Chocolate pon pom with red poms.
Very confusing~The F2s that are tri are an light orange on white metallic but the ONE with black coming in is in small patches but definitely black!
Will try n post pics.
~I was wondering if you say use a bronze wild colored fish don't you have to know what its parentage is exact? Are all bronze wilds created the same!?

My tri is definately not weak! She is a sassy chunky head oranda! I will admit I am not the most "perfected" fry raiser and she made it!

[sc569]

Orandablue,

The blue that you have is not a real blue. It is a non-demelanizing red/white. The white patches are overlaid with black so it looks blue. The red patches are overlaid with black so it looks bronze.

I consider true blues as self colored fish - no patches but evenly colored blue..

The non-demelnizing red/white (sarassa) is an easier fish to get than a real blue fish, I believe. Not even sure if they are available since most blues are the non-demelanizing red/white variety

Bronzes or green metallics are wild type. I was just asking Gary to use a wild type fish as one of the breeding partners to his tri-color so we could figure out whether the tri-color is dominant or recessive. However, since it is dominant to some color forms, it is not an ideal partner, just an informative one.

[orandablue]

That actually makes sense to me! Who knew! So I can go look at my blues w new idea! So because the blue was not a "true blue" I got the tri colors/? The only ALL blue I have is a dragon eye butterfly that looks a darker metallic blue but shows no signs of the "patches".
How do i know if shes a true blue?
Thanks for explaining.

[sc569]

A telescope might be a real blue! Since telescopes tend to be more inbred, you might have a real blue there.

The telescope is recessive so some inbreeding is necessary. In my spawn of this year, I got telescopes from normal eyed parents. The color gamut is amazing: telescope blacks, telescope calico and telescope chocolate. From one pair of fish - wild type bronze, calico, chocolate, black, calico chocolate; all with and without telescope eyes. I must have some calico black moors as some of the calicos are telescopes.

[orandablue]

calico chocolate!? Well they say that the demekin/calico is a central fish in all the different types! So how would I make more blue demekin? (with only one female blue)?hmmmm

[sc569]

You will have to beg or borrow another blue demekin. Most likely a male. You will have to verify that it is a 'true blue'. I like that coinage.

Any other method is a long and winding road - at least two generations of breeding.