first time formalin sos

[orandablue]

I am starting to freak! i have flashing young fish (my years work) that have some parasite that I cant kill! I tried parasite clear, constant prazi, salt up to and over 1.003 and still flashing! I have never had so much problems and so got a $20.00 bottle of formalin started dosing. Switched to quick cure still flashing. It has been three days going on 4 days now. Today put all (residents) in a sterile tank And this stuff is spreading. Mostly notice a mucus grey film on fish gasping at surface (a bit) not bad because started doing 75%wcs and also relocating to completely new tanks! (other baby tank got it)
What am I missing!?? What are the limits of formalin?
I have never used it.
How long does quick cure take? How long do you treat with it?
Any help appreciated. Don't want to loose my whole year!
I thought it was costia or costias friend the other "C" parasite??chidella?
I thought formalin and quick cure would stop the flashing and irritation? I can't stand this anymore. :cry:
~

[Corrie]

formalin and quick cure are the same
quick cure has less formalin and has malachite green in it.

I've never been able to get prazi to work right.

First, lower your temp. Slow metabolism will buy you more time.



Exactly how are you using the formalin? (not quick cure)
I would start out doing what ever dosage they say at 1 1/2 strength.

You didn't use formalin and quick cure at the same time, did you?

[orandablue]

o.k. I treated first w formalin directed dose of 1drop a gallon lowered temp put in bubblers then switched to quick cure but now surprised at less than great results and PANIC am going to go back to straight formalin. So you do above the reg dose? I got their temp around 65 was 70F. totally new tank...Is it better to do copper safe?? Is that risky on 1 yr old fish? or stick to formalin?
I just don't know how formaldehyde works yet. I guess the longer you stick w this "hobby" the more you run up against!
I have never been able to not kill anything with salt!
~i am shopping for a microscope now. I think it is a sign. It makes me sick not being able to get this crap off my babies! bubble eyes,... telescopes ...it is sad when they try to scape their gills.
anyway thanks for tips keep em coming!
OH Where do you find a good microscope cheap? How good do they have to be!?

[orandablue]

found a microscope....wondering how powerful I want the magnification?

[Virginia ranchu]

Formalin usually does the trick, but it is very toxic, and if not used carefully, it will kill your fish. I swore never to use this stuff again, because it always killed my fish, until I started following the directions below. Since then, I have had good luck with it.

Best of luck,

Rob


Please read these directions from fish veterinarian Dr. Erik Johnson

Notes From Doc Johnson

Formalin can be available in gallon jugs for about sixty dollars.Formalin is a mixture of formaldehyde gas in water. It's not an easy mix to stabilize and sometimes they use Methanol to make it more stable.
Formalin and Formaldehyde are essentially the same things. Formalin, by definition, is Formaldehyde at a concentration of 37% in water.
To use this, try to get Methanol free, but if not, expect some trouble from your smaller treated fish. Never use Formalin that contains a white preciptate - this is the toxic paraformaldehyde.

Use 2 cc per 10 gallons to create a 50 ppm concentration in the system, wait two hours and flush out the treatment water, sucking the outlet water from a bottom drain or vacuum if possible. If possible, remove the biological media to a fishless vat for the treatment period. Treat every day or every other day for three to five treatments for best results.
For plants, use 3 cc per 10 gallons for a mere 12 hours to eliminate pests that the plants may carry.
In the treated system, formalin binds oxygen and so you need to aerate.

Formalin will kill weak or piping fish.
Formalin will kill filter bacteria.
Formalin will consume massive amounts of oxygen while in use.


"Don't expose any fish to Formalin for more than one hundred and twenty minutes. Use half dose for Goldfish. That means you'd only use 25 PPM for one hundred and twenty minutes then do a massive water change." ~ Doc Johnson

[suphi]

Flashing can be caused by irritation of the skin, commonly due to parasites but not always (it can also be caused by skin damage from meds, toxic water, etc.)

When everything else fails, you can always fall back to the traditional way of treatment--tub to tub (i.e. 100% WC daily). This would get rid of all the free swimming parasites daily giving fish's immune system a chance to kick in. Make sure that temp stays the same between new and old water, otherwise fish will get sicker.

[Corrie]

I guess the first thing would be what suphi said.
Formalin and malachite green can cause flashing, gill irritation, and gray film. Especially malachite green.

I doubt you have the two "C's". Both of those parasites work fast and you would be seeing it on your other fish, and you would more than likely have some dead fish by now.

My guess is the most common goldfish parasite, flukes.

Follow the protocol Rob posted, 1cc/ml per 10 gals. of formalin,
NOT quick cure.

About the microscope. Start at the lowest magnification you can. Slowly increase it until you start seeing something.
You'll be looking for two things.
First, flukes. Scrape around their gills and belly. You should be able to see them on the lowest power.
Second, little round balls. You'll see them on a much higher power.

It's rare that fish only have one thing going on at a time. Formalin and 100% water changes should cover most of your bases for the time being.

If it's flukes, I would switch to an organophosphate.

HTH
Corrie

[TheTruth]

I am starting to freak! i have flashing young fish (my years work) that have some parasite that I cant kill! I tried parasite clear, constant prazi, salt up to and over 1.003 and still flashing! I have never had so much problems and so got a $20.00 bottle of formalin started dosing. Switched to quick cure still flashing. It has been three days going on 4 days now. Today put all (residents) in a sterile tank And this stuff is spreading. Mostly notice a mucus grey film on fish gasping at surface (a bit) not bad because started doing 75%wcs and also relocating to completely new tanks! (other baby tank got it)
What am I missing!?? What are the limits of formalin?
I have never used it.
How long does quick cure take? How long do you treat with it?
Any help appreciated. Don't want to loose my whole year!
I thought it was costia or costias friend the other "C" parasite??chidella?
I thought formalin and quick cure would stop the flashing and irritation? I can't stand this anymore. :cry:
~
the formalin pet stores now sell is less effective than it used to be if you can get a perscripton from a doctor 37pct formaldehyde at the rate of 1ml per 10 gal at 75 degrees with a follow up 3 or 4 days later has always worked for me in the past.dont breath it ,dont touch it use gloves.you may have over medicated ,its hard to tell

[orandablue]

Thank you guys so much. I don't know how to quote on this forum? {what is a PIPING FISH??
I was freakin out last night! (threw my back this mornin too in this cold "butt" weather. ~~~So the mixture of quick cure AND formaldehyde I gave my young 5month old fry last night did not kill them.YAY~ And I think the dosing of Formalin from pet store is weaker. maybe 37%??
I have been doing that switching into completely new tank thing for quite some time and as soon as i get a tank "cycled" it gets a prob! or I feed live , fresh food and I get an outbreak!
I think though I have been kickin this 'stuff' around in my baby tank for some time, it always being "harbored" on the young fish.
I think it is now pretty resistant to meds.
I am going to look at a microscope today and get to the bottom of this.
Why waste my time breeding anymore if they are all going to die...no causualties yet! (except culls of weaker less desireables)
I think the mag. goes to 400X on the scope. The scope is a big old 60s TANK!
~~On the tank I pullled the fish from that was just cycled but now crashed mostly....if I run high doses of "F" and high temp will it go sterile(no pathogens) if left like this for a week? or should I completely tear down n bleach? Also is it safe to just clean and DRY out completely??
Well not knowing exactly what it is...but can cysts or eggs survive a dry spell then hatch once rehydrated???
Does PP and drying on heaters kill everything?
should i do this to the fish!? (just kidding)

~well thanks for help and support. cant wait to get my scope!
Is there a thread or sticky on scoping and scraping fish? thanks ~J

[Corrie]

piping = gasping for air

Here's a video tutorial on scraping and scoping

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?80988-Scrape-and-Scope-Tutorial

Ideally you should have 2-3 tanks with water, ready to go.
Just move the fish from tank to tank as you treat them and not rely on cycled tanks. Sterilize everything that was in contact between moves.

Wipe the tanks down with alcohol between fish.

If the formalin is working, give it time to work. It will take a few days.

good luck
Corrie

[Cincy Ranchu]

At some point I would go back to prazi. I pressume you have the dry form, I us the required amount and put it in a cup and mix with a tablespoon of vodka or bourbon, once mixed then I add water and stir, then I add to the tank....

It sound like flukes to me, but could be Costia....
Keep up the water change, do ot cross contaminte you gear.

[mikroll]

found a microscope....wondering how powerful I want the magnification?

If it is fluke and your first time seeing them ....you will have no problem id as you will jump and yell out when you see the evil things live. Take a just died fish, clip out a piece of gill put it on slide ( no need of cover just keep it wet) use around 40-80x ,i use 60x and look for movement, then watch ,compare and make photos. later you can increase mag.

[orandablue]

Corrie i just watched the tutorial on scraping LOL I busted a seem listening to the wifes comments in the background! It is nice knowing that YES we are all crazy and YES our spouses want to club us.lol
~I may have gotten the prob under control, cant see the flukes/costia yet...not EXactly sure what they look like I will try more scraping today. My microscope is a bit "jerry rigged" micro lens is off mostly but it was a freebie.
Only causualty so far is my back! The pain is a constant now for three days.
******if you want to support the hobby please mail "GOOD MEDS" to this address~lol yes i mean for me!:coffee:

[johnatoranchu]

Not really sure what is going on here and whilst I agree that fluke are probably responsible NOW, I think that you need to question your husbandry to prevent it happening again. I am also concerned that you are referring to 5 month old fish as FRY. How big are they? By inference, use of the word "fry" implies that they are still very small and suggests to me that they are under-nourished. At 5 months old, the youngsters' bodies, that is nose to end of peduncle, should be at least 2 inches long; anything less then they have to all intents and purposes been starved. Ideally they should be 3 inches plus. I think you need to increase your library as there are numerous books which will enable you to expand your knowledge and understanding of cause and effects of parasites and diseases, correct identification and use of the appropriate medication and using microscopes. Better to spend on gaining knowledge than on buying a shelf of medications.
John

[orandablue]

I don't speak japanese. Maybe bubble eyes don't grow as big as orandas. But o.k. i will measure my fish,...how is this thread so confusing? I am trying to learn to identify parasites and bacterias on my fish and treat accordingly. I have already read many books on fish husbandry and after 2 years have learned alot. I bring up "simple" topics like this because to 'most' observers and readers of this forum alot of what and HOW things are discussed does not become clear. Things assumed and or understood on this forum might need a clearer explanation to the layman at times.

[Corrie]

Corrie i just watched the tutorial on scraping LOL
I thought you'd get a kick out of that! LOL

I don't envy you with that back one bit.
Get better soon.

[orandablue]

o.k. I am a fish scraping fool! I can not ID WHAT nematode I am seeing and w out dye have yet to see costia but LOTS of crazy bugs on these fish! And some with big mouths! Who knows what is good and what is bad!?? Two fish in QT right now are a mine field o fun and am getting new slides tomorrow. I thought they would move a bit but not much movement on the slide.
~If anyone has good ID parasite links would be great! I guess when you don't find any your fish is good to go!
(already OCF now may become hypochondriac) using 140X mag. with no dyes.
p.s. anyone use methylene B. to dye!?

[Corrie]

~If anyone has good ID parasite links would be great!

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?57011-Parasite-pics-in-the-works

[Cincy Ranchu]

The JOHNSON AND HESS BOOK IS A MUSTITR HASGREAT DESCRIPTIONS AND PICS

[orandablue]

Well I think the gill and skin flukes are blowing their heads off! formalin is CRAP so I used a pesticide. is this my new drug of choice....NO! very tricky and can kill weaker fish. HOWEVER it is the ONLY thing that is doing any damage. FINAL verdict still to come out....but it has been HEdouble hocky stix here! Anyone use pesticides other chemicals for treatment resistant flukes?? Come on I know we have all got some nasties~*>:)

[mikroll]

Well I think the gill and skin flukes are blowing their heads off! formalin is CRAP so I used a pesticide. is this my new drug of choice....NO! very tricky and can kill weaker fish. HOWEVER it is the ONLY thing that is doing any damage. FINAL verdict still to come out....but it has been HEdouble hocky stix here! Anyone use pesticides other chemicals for treatment resistant flukes?? Come on I know we have all got some nasties~*>:)
works fast
HP dip

[orandablue]

these flukes did that in kindergarten! They think it feels funny when it bubbles! tickles*** no these boys laughed at salt, prazi, formaldehyde, parasite clear, and im pretty sure pottas. promag. would make em laugh too! I am waitin to see if what i used killed the babies as well as adults. I have always used prazi pro and salt for flukes,...and now! I have either a super resistant strane of fluke OR something snuck in under the radar! But thanks and if any more pop up under my mic. maybe will try a dip. Tried a formaldehyde dip though and almost killed the fish and yet did not kill the flukes.
~i think i h bombed but knowing your enemy is #1!~looking for parasite ID book by gerald Bassleer~

[Corrie]

at the risk of getting slapped around.....

ob, look up FlukeTabs and Malathion 50 on the internet, along with the search words, goldfish and flukes

[orandablue]

and toss a Mebendazole! Actually probably looking for super pure prazi at this point. Anyone know where to buy it? other than dr.fosters? And i dont want 80 gallons just a little powder please, Like $30.00-$50.00 range? *your roll*in the game of goldfish fluke gamble!

[suphi]

Are you really sure it's fluke and not something else? How exactly did you medicate in the past?

FYI, copper kills everything that doesn't have vertebrae.

[orandablue]

i use salt and prazi in past. it is maybe that skin flukes are a little different than gill flukes. i got impatient with the copper then someone gave me a pesticide to try that they had used for years. Actually was a fish distributer so I believed him then looked up dosage in Bessleer's book. (still waiting to see if anything POPs back up on fish), and hoping any gill tissue damage is minimal....mostly with the pesticides oxygen deprivation is a main concern as it breaks down it depletes oxygen in water. What is the diff. between gill and skin flukes? Well maybe one can't be controlled with prazi alone....:youtellme:

[Corrie]

salt make fish slime, slime covers and protects flukes

I've never been able to get prazi to work, even mucking with the pH and at triple strength.

copper will take at least 7-10 days to work, I push for at least 14 myself.
Copper is a 'do all', flukes, costia, ick, etc, it's great when you're not sure what's going on, or, in most cases there's more than one thing going on anyway.

If you're sure it's flukes, then the pesticide is the way to go. Fluke Tabs, malathion, etc. You still have to use it correctly though, which means you can't stop 1/2 way through.

Gill flukes have live birth, like a guppy.
Skin flukes have eggs.

Gill flukes you can wipe out with one treatment, if it's the right treatment done correctly.

Skin flukes (eggs) you have to treat every 2-4 days (Ph/temp/ect dictates that) because you can't kill the eggs until they hatch.

I agree with your friend the fish distributor. If you know how to correctly use the pesticides/malathion/organophosphates, they are the best, easiest, and safest to use.

[orandablue]

I thought I had gill flukes! so treated em all through the summer but skin flukes are different! live n learn~ my fish where producing a greyish slime and I should of known something was up other than fungus, it was skin flukes! I lost alot of fry and whole spawns thinking it was gill flukes! or fungus. SO I WAS wondering about the salt thickening and protecting the flukes! same with melafix!? As for the pest. such a small arena for error and must keep such a close eye on the fish. Scary the first time.
Thanks for the tips. will look up more on that pest. you recommend. what i have is more like metrifonat.

[mikroll]

note:
the two most common fluke fond on our goldfish are Gyrodactylus =parasite of the skin and reproduces by embyro (live bearer) and Dactylogyridea = parasite of the gill and lays eggs. they are both found in the gills and upon the skin. normally if you find one the other can also be present.
There are of course many ways to destroy these evil things. I use the prazi with sucess (but needs seveal treatments and is costly)but also have enjoyed great sucess with the HP 10-10 dip which is fast and cheap.

[orandablue]

can you give any more HP specifics? I know I have done it before. 10-10 ?
How long do you dip?
If any eggs actually made it i will be surprised however might load up on copper safe just in case...depends on what i scope.
Thanks again and may everyone have a fluke free Holiday!

[mikroll]

can you give any more HP specifics? I know I have done it before. 10-10 ?
How long do you dip?
!

Hydrogen peroxide can be used as a dip or bath.
Dip HP 10:10 as describe by "goldrush" at raffles and ref. I. Buxton
HP 3% diluted 1 to 10 parts water to make it 0.3% dip fish in solution for 10 seconds only. easy
i like to dip fish in a salt bath after that too. and oh yes it relly does knock the S*** of of the flukes too.
the bath is more diluted and is given for longer time.
after the flukes you consider if the bite wounds need to be treated for infection. if you need more info i can give links .