Water Changes

[rcarltonj]

Just curious. When making 50 % water changes, how many people dose the water conditioner (Prime) for the entire tank volume verses just the volume of the replaced water? Up until recently, I always treated the water first, then added it to the tank. Now I'm dosing the tank first, then adding the tap water.

I've heard individual people say to dose for the tank volume while others say to dose for the replacement volume. I'm just looking for more than one person's opinion. Also, if you dose for the tank volume and the unused conditioner builds up over time (maybe only to a certain point), are there any known long-term effects on the fish?

[Ranchumaniax]

I did just the replace volumn. This save me some of the dechor.
I was never treat water for chorine when i did 50% water with no stress/damage the fish. So I guess treat just for the replace volumn should be fine.

paul

[Ranchufan16]

i only did treat the water that I was replacing...one, saved on dechlor and two, well the other water was already "treated". I live in the country now and I do not ahve chlorine in my water, I still add it but only 1/2 the amount needed. habit I guess..more than anything.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Unless I am changing >50% I seldom use a water conditioner. I think it depends on you watewr source and if you have Chloramines vs chlorine. The later seems to have little effect up to 50%, if in doubt I add a little salt

[TheTruth]

Just curious. When making 50 % water changes, how many people dose the water conditioner (Prime) for the entire tank volume verses just the volume of the replaced water? Up until recently, I always treated the water first, then added it to the tank. Now I'm dosing the tank first, then adding the tap water.

I've heard individual people say to dose for the tank volume while others say to dose for the replacement volume. I'm just looking for more than one person's opinion. Also, if you dose for the tank volume and the unused conditioner builds up over time (maybe only to a certain point), are there any known long-term effects on the fish?

the problem with answering this is everybodies water is different.i usually dont need it.there are parts of nj usa where you cant change more than 50%no matter what conditioner you put in.well water usually doesent need it.if it is necessary replace whats lost.if the fish seem stressed add more.calicos need more conditioner

[johnatoranchu]

It's always best to follow the instructions on the bottle. Here the manufacturers' instructions always recommend dosing the whole volume. As John H says potentially everybody's water is different. I would say that if you need to dechlorinate always dose the whole volume - overdosing is not a real problem.
John

[Superior Goldie]

Since we have pretty decent well water, I use a hose to go directly from the kitchen faucet to the tank, diffusing some of the gases by holding the end of the hose to the side wall of the tank. Temperature to match temp of the tank of course.

I then dose (as recommended) for the entire volume of the tank.

Just my 2 cents

Superior Goldie

[c2c]

i have some seriously yucky city water, so i try to keep me 10 gals or so in the house to "mature" for a few days then test it and just add dechlor to it instead of whole tank.:exact:

[orandablue]

why are you using prime? are you cycling tank? prime is expensive as u know.

[rcarltonj]

Why do you say that Prime is expensive? 1 ml treats 10 gallons. Many of the other conditioners dose at 5 ml for 10 gallons. When comparing on a unit cost basis, isn't Prime actually cheaper?

[Corrie]

Rich, assuming you're using Prime for Chloramines, then you would only treat for the amount of chlorine and ammonia. Not the entire tank volume.

Seachem says this about Prime:
Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine

What that says is that a certain amount of Prime, will neutralize a certain amount of chlorine and ammonia.

Keep in mind, all of these ammonia neutralizers use formalin to bind ammonia. Formalin is very unstable and breaks down fast. They are counting on an established biological filter to use up that ammonia as it's re-released into solution.

But to answer your question, what's left over is very little salts, so no there's nothing to worry about building up.

[rcarltonj]

Seachem says this about Prime:
Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine

What that says is that a certain amount of Prime, will neutralize a certain amount of chlorine and ammonia.

Hi Corrie and others,

Thanks for the replies. However, I'm still puzzled by the differences between what manufacturers say and what fishkeepers say.

If I were to hand wash a small item in a gallon of water with a bit of laundry soap, it would get clean. If I washed the same small item in 50 gallons of water with the same bit of soap, it wouldn't get clean because the soap isn't concentrated enough. Wouldn't a water conditioner work the same way when neutralizing chlorine/chloramines?

OK, I know this is an argument for dosing the conditioner at the total tank volume, but I'm still questioning that too. There is no chloramine in my city water supply and there's only 1.2 mg/l of chlorine (along with some phosphate and flouride). Thus, my assumption is that some unreacted Prime would be left over if I dose for the total tank volume because 1.2 mg/l is a lot less than the 5 mg/l of chlorine that Prime will remove. So what happens to these unreacted chemical?

OK, OK. Maybe its a moot point in the long run because people seem to have good results either dosing for the replacement water only, dosing for the total tank volume, or not dosing at all when changing 50% or less water. Maybe in the short run it makes no difference, but I still wonder about the long term effects of exposing fish to chemicals that they would normally not be exposed to in the wild.

[Corrie]

Wouldn't a water conditioner work the same way when neutralizing chlorine/chloramines?

nope, not really
I know it gets confusing because most references are in ppm.
That's based on a certain concentration.
But to reverse engineer that in easier to understand terms.
I'm going to make these numbers up just to try and make it easier to understand.

It takes a certain amount of sodium thiosulfate to bind a certain amount of chlorine.
Say it's 2 tablespoons of sodium thiosulfate to bind one teaspoon of clorox. (those are made up numbers)

It will not matter if you put one teaspoon of clorox in one gal of water, or ten gallons of water.
It will still take exactly that same amount of sodium thiosulfate to bind it.

So what happens to these unreacted chemical?

You'll get mostly salts.
Keep in mind, you are adding very little sodium thiosulfate.
Just guessing, I would say for 50gals of water and your 1.2 mg/l chlorine, you would only need about 1/2 gram.

If you are sure you only need to treat for chlorine, you should be using sodium thiosulfate. Use the Prime when you have a ammonia problem.

[opera]

Corrie,

How about chloramines? Could we also just use sodium thiosulfate to break chloramines?
Last time I just used aged water, and I heard even though the water was aged, it would not get rid of chloramines. I lost few fish because I thought the best water is the aged water.
Now I use de-chlorines.

[Corrie]

How about chloramines? Could we also just use sodium thiosulfate to break chloramines?

Sodium thiosulfate will only neutralize the chlorine.
With chloramines, you will still have the ammonia left behind.

Watch aging water that has chloramines in it. It's common for them to raise the pH to make the chloramines more stable.

After you aerate the water for a few days, the pH will drop.
After it drops, the pH is stable then.

[rcarltonj]

Sodium thiosulfate will only neutralize the chlorine.
With chloramines, you will still have the ammonia left behind.

How much ammonia are we talking about? As much as a 5" fish would produce in one day or as much as a 2" fish would produce? More? Less? Enough to be a problem in a fully cycled 75 gallon tank with a 50% water change?

[Corrie]

Rich, depends on how much chloramine is in your water.

Formaldehyde binds ammonia and formaldehyde breaks down real fast. As it does that, it releases ammonia.
These products are counting on a biological filter to take up that ammonia.

So on a partial water change, not much.

It's cheap enough though, so why not just go on and use it?
You can buy cloramx in bulk and that would only cost pennies each time.