Sick Oranda, suggestions please

[Hectorial]

Checked the water, its only issue (which is always this way and not out of the ordinary) is a little more base than neutral. Ammonia is safe, all others safe to ideal. Did a 30% change Saturday, but have been like this since last change which may have stressed them (installed undergravel filter) but I wouldn't think they would be like this that long, it has been about a month.
*update from when I originally posted this on yahoo! answers*
--Two of the three are better and swimming around lively again, but one will swim for a little and then kind of stop swimming and drift/crash into plants or substrate. today I put him in a large strainer at the top of the tank(big holes the size of his eyes at least, prolly veggie strainer or something). today I noticed little black marks on the edge of his tail fins and over the past few days i had noticed his fins becoming torn, probably from drifting into plants. This Oranda has always been thin compared to the other two, they are fed daily**
Also, since the undergravel install I have had red rust algae on the glass and decorations which hadnt happen before in this tank.

Tank specs
3 young oranda, 4inch max (nose to fintip)
2 cory cats, 1inch max
substrate is riverstones and gravel (hence the corys to get between the river rocks for left over food)
37 gallon (yes I plan to get these guys a larger tank in the future)
Live plants
Undergravel filter
And biowheel filter with 2 marineland filter cartridges
UV sterilizer
Large bubble bubbler
One air stone
Two flora lights
Feed them assortment of foods
-freeze dried brine shrimp
-goldfish disk (less messy than flakes)
-bloodworms
-shrimp pellets
- once a week mashed peas, no skins
I usually feed them their goldfish food 2 of every 3 days or as a supplement to the other foods listed.
water temp is 70.

I use aquarium salt (the dose recommended for goldfish and i always error on the side of caution), dechlorinater, and stress zyme with water changes.

I purchased metro-med, but i will be out of town when it arrives. I will try to walk my house sitter through the process though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIEqncJx9r8

you can see the black dots on his tail at the end. I wondering if maybe it has an internal parasite? I have fed him a little since he has been in the strainer to make sure he gets the food. I dont think he is constipated, and really cant think of what else to do.

[joe]

what kind of test do you have. perhaps you are getting an inaccurate reading with your water parameters. did these symptoms come after you installed the under gravel filter. this type of filiter is the worse filter you can use with goldfish. what is the origin of the river rocks sometimes these things can blanched chemicals back into the tank. i would remove the undergravel filter, get your water rechecked including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph. Remove the oranda that is acting sick and place in hospital tank. only feed the metro meds to him not the healthy fish. metro meds is excellent, see if someone can feed it to your fish while you are gone. instruct the person to give only a couple of pellets per day as this food can spoil the water if not eaten.

[Cincy Ranchu]

I found out years ago that undergravel filters do not work well with Goldfish as the oragnic load is too great. For that matter i really don't like gravel much

[Romewhip]

I'd remove the undergravel filter immediately, and would do weekly 50% minimum water changes. Gravel is just a good place for waste and bacteria to accumulate, so I would get that out too. I'm not a fan of the bio-wheels on a HOB filter, the filter cartridges are enough and I take the carbon out when I use them, and change them often. I'd also agree with the one oranda being in a hospital tank, and nothing in there other than air bubbler.

[opera]

Hi Hectorial,

Glad to see you. Welcome to the site. As you have noticed already, sustrate is not good for goldfish. Most of the goldfish keepers have bare bottom fish tank. On the main tank, just as suggested, to water change once a week, at least 50% to 100%. You can tell the fish would be more healthy.
For sick orlanda, seperate to different tank (hospital tank) and treat him seperately. You can take more pictures and tell us how is the progress.

Opera

[Hectorial]

what kind of test do you have. perhaps you are getting an inaccurate reading with your water parameters. did these symptoms come after you installed the under gravel filter. this type of filiter is the worse filter you can use with goldfish. what is the origin of the river rocks sometimes these things can blanched chemicals back into the tank. i would remove the undergravel filter, get your water rechecked including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph. Remove the oranda that is acting sick and place in hospital tank. only feed the metro meds to him not the healthy fish. metro meds is excellent, see if someone can feed it to your fish while you are gone. instruct the person to give only a couple of pellets per day as this food can spoil the water if not eaten.

yes, these symptoms came about after installing the undergravel filter, it originally hit the other two and then a few days after them this one became lethargic as well. the other two are back to swimming normally but until I can put this one in a hospital tank (today hopefully, giving away some tetras in a ten gallon) he has remained and will remain in the strainer, which by the way i see him resting on the bottom of. I keep the aquarium light off because I dont want to overheat him since he has no cover and is hugged up at the top of the tank, but I leave the light in the room on so they have some light. <sigh> installing that thing was such a major pain, but if it has to come out i guess i will take it out.

The river rocks have been in there since the initial set up, so if anything i will take out the gravel, but I will leave them in so it still visually pleasing and can anchor the live plants and scenery.

[Hectorial]

what kind of test do you have. perhaps you are getting an inaccurate reading with your water parameters. did these symptoms come after you installed the under gravel filter. this type of filiter is the worse filter you can use with goldfish. what is the origin of the river rocks sometimes these things can blanched chemicals back into the tank. i would remove the undergravel filter, get your water rechecked including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph. Remove the oranda that is acting sick and place in hospital tank. only feed the metro meds to him not the healthy fish. metro meds is excellent, see if someone can feed it to your fish while you are gone. instruct the person to give only a couple of pellets per day as this food can spoil the water if not eaten.

Test that i have are the Jungle Ammonia Quick Dip and Jungle 6 test in One Strip Quick Dip. i follow the directions for time to wait for reading and all that.

The river rocks were purchased from petco.

[joe]

your water testing kits are horrible. Those dip sticks do not give accurate measurements. Invest in a good kit. I understand that the river rocks are part of your initial set up but they can blanch back over time. Did you purchase them from a fish store or did you collect from the environment

[Hectorial]

well today my Oranda started pinecone. :( I placed my order for metromed on the 21st but it doesnt look like it will be here til next week while i am away in new york. Hopefully my friend who is house/dog/fish sitting can help. I am not sure if the pinecone means its full blown dropsy since this is only the first day of its occurence. from what i read on goldfish connection the kidney damage may already be done and the dropsy will return. Im going to hit up the petstores looking to see what they have to use in its place. I am hopefully getting rid of my serpae tera's today (last person on craigslist flaked) which will open up a hospital tank. going to take out the UGF and remove alot of the substrate which will take up a good chunk of the weekend. :(

[joe]

symptoms that look like dropsy can be of many different types of diseases. I will tell you this much that I have had excellent results using metromeds with symptoms that look like dropsy. Feel his abdomen. Does it feel soft and mushy, if so this could be a sign of kidney failure but it also can be an egg bound fish as well. Look at the gills. Are they frayed and light colored. If you do not have a hospital tank, get a plastic tub and place the fish in there with a low pressured air stone. Change the water daily. Place on table spoon of rock salt per gallon. I would not feed the fish until the metro meds arrive. After it arrives feed just a couple of pellets that have been presoaked. Continue to change the water daily and continue with the rock salt.

[Hectorial]

Today I bought some Maracyn Two and CaribSea Ready-Water Preconditioned Water for Freshwater Aquaria. Maracyn Two says it can be used to treat Dropsy and I called the manufacturer and confirmed i can use it with anti-bacterial fish food so when the Metro-Med comes in it can we used with too.

I finally got rid of my Serpae Tetras and did a 50% water change and gravel siphon on their 10 gallon and filled it with the Ready-water, so no new tap water in this tank, and added some Stress Coat and the Maracyn Two. This 10 gallon set up only has the ten gallon filter, a medium air-bar, a tiki decoration that holds down the air bar, and barely enough gravel so you cant see the glass on the bottom. based on the Jungle test strips i still have, the water parameters are good, only difference between this tank and his old one is the 10gallon is right around neutral (prolly cause the ready-water) and 1 degree warmer at 72ish.

Also I am keeping him in the strainer, i took him out yesterday and he just drifted around and got carried into things and then would struggle against the current to get himself unstuck. While in the strainer he just rest at the bottom. I am keeping the light off since the strainer keeps him only a couple inches from where the light sits, but the 10 gallon is literally right next to the 37 gallon he originally was living, so he gets some lighting from that tank and isnt in complete darkness.

On closer inspection his whole body isnt pineconed, and compared to some pictures I have seen on the internet isnt as bad as some of those. I think we may still have a shot. he still swims to eat and greet, but becomes tired quickly

[Hectorial]

symptoms that look like dropsy can be of many different types of diseases. I will tell you this much that I have had excellent results using metromeds with symptoms that look like dropsy. Feel his abdomen. Does it feel soft and mushy, if so this could be a sign of kidney failure but it also can be an egg bound fish as well. Look at the gills. Are they frayed and light colored. If you do not have a hospital tank, get a plastic tub and place the fish in there with a low pressured air stone. Change the water daily. Place on table spoon of rock salt per gallon. I would not feed the fish until the metro meds arrive. After it arrives feed just a couple of pellets that have been presoaked. Continue to change the water daily and continue with the rock salt.

belly felt firm, I have seen where people hold the fish and pull the gills open, i didnt do that, the belly rub seemed to stress him enough, lol. but externally his gills dont show any signs of damage. Only symptoms he is showing is black spots on tail, he is thin, lethargic, there is a black spot on his side next to his dorsal fin, and he is pineconed.

I will hold off til his new food arrives, unless you think i should give this in its place since goldfish connection has yet to even charge my card and there still isnt an actual ETA on it.

http://www.petmountain.com/product//11442-509040/jungle-labs-anti-bacteria-medicated-fish-food-1oz.html#content

they sell this at petsmart, and it was the only antibacterial food they sold for freshwater fish. I didnt purchase it because I didnt want it to change it up once metro-med arrived and over medicate him.

[joe]

i would go with the food that you described until the metro meds get to. it is very important to get the medication in him. There is often mixed results with meds that you pour into the water. Based on your description i do not think you have dropsy, the pine coning that you are seeing is based on some secondary infection

[Hectorial]

got him the antibacterial food i found at petsmart and he didnt like it he swam up, ate a granual, spat it out, and drifted back down. I hand fed him some, he is that lethargic, which i couldnt tell if he actually swallowed it or just spit it out. he is completely pineconed now, I am thinking euthanasia, though the means i have available are more mechanical than chemical. he doesnt seem to be in major stress, no thrashing, or gasping, just sitting relaxing...


well he has died while i was typing this. I guess the handling of him stress him out too much. but at least he is at peace. he will be missed.
I pulled him out of the tank in his strainer and showed him to the oranda, who surprised me, they swam down and paused while they looked at him for a second and then went back to swimming normally. i was not expecting that, lol.