Looking for Idea

[KB5252]

But again, they do exist, period. It's just that the mass mentality about goldfish is they are to fragile for a pond. It's bull at least in the temperate climate of Oregon and I suspect at least 1/2 of the US.

Take the Blue Phoenix... It does just fine under ice.

I have a pond of commercially produced strains that are under 3 inches of ice. Yes I loose some to the cold but those who are left are hardy and are as fine of a commercial fish as I can obtain through the wholesale channels.

If I want better fish I'll have to breed my own.

If your goal is to bred the best show quality this or that, great keep them warm and focus on the traits you prefer. I'm confident with a few selection events for cold hard you can start selecting for that perfect fish.

Plus fish grown in colder conditions will live considerably longer than a large ranchu brought in from the tropics.

Looking to try something besides common, koi, comets etc. for my pond, any advice on an inexpensive candidate for my pond?

What is the minimum depth you would advise given the climate here in Mid Tenn? Any other tips would be very much appreciated.

[bekko]

I lump shubunkin, wakin and watonai with the hardy varieties. Fantails usually do OK too and are sort of a transitional variety between hardy and fancy varieties. There is a line of tamasaba from the Nigata region of Japan which is said to be cold-hardy. These look like a single tail ryukin and are assumed to have been developed from ryukin which has some cold-hardiness itself. If you move farther up the family tree from ryukin the likelihood of success dwindles rapidly.

While most goldfish develop better in shallow water, the lower end of the family tree (common hibuna to ryukin) are more likely to do OK in a deeper pond. During the winter when the fish are dormant a deeper pond is a definite advantage. In the summer it is a disadvantage and impedes observation. Whatever you do will be a trade-off. Personally, I would consider 30 inches.

You will really have to find your own way with this as there are no hard-and-fast rules. There are individual fish in even the hardy varieties which are genetically weaker and will not survive. It takes a trained eye to select the hardiest fish from a group.

How you manage the pond also makes a difference. It is a nuisance and expensive to keep a hole open in the ice to encourage gas exchange but this will pay-off in the spring. A good autumnal cleaning also helps.

-steve

[KB5252]

I lump shubunkin, wakin and watonai with the hardy varieties. Fantails usually do OK too and are sort of a transitional variety between hardy and fancy varieties. There is a line of tamasaba from the Nigata region of Japan which is said to be cold-hardy. These look like a single tail ryukin and are assumed to have been developed from ryukin which has some cold-hardiness itself. If you move farther up the family tree from ryukin the likelihood of success dwindles rapidly.

While most goldfish develop better in shallow water, the lower end of the family tree (common hibuna to ryukin) are more likely to do OK in a deeper pond. During the winter when the fish are dormant a deeper pond is a definite advantage. In the summer it is a disadvantage and impedes observation. Whatever you do will be a trade-off. Personally, I would consider 30 inches.

You will really have to find your own way with this as there are no hard-and-fast rules. There are individual fish in even the hardy varieties which are genetically weaker and will not survive. It takes a trained eye to select the hardiest fish from a group.

How you manage the pond also makes a difference. It is a nuisance and expensive to keep a hole open in the ice to encourage gas exchange but this will pay-off in the spring. A good autumnal cleaning also helps.

-steve

Thank you, so I would be safe to start of with a few inexpensive fantails and see how they respond? The pond I have in mind is around 26" deep at the lowest point. I have been told that if I run a pump in winter it can cause problems but what if I let the flow pump upwards with no tubing exposed to the elements, would it operate properly? The pond in question has not frozen more than 1" give or take in the 3 or so years I have had it up and running.

[bekko]

That would work with the pump.

-steve

[KB5252]

That would work with the pump.

-steve

Thank you Steve. I know a lot is learned by trial and error. I tend to get attached to my fish and want to provide the best possible life for them.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Nics subject David,
Today Snoopy and I removed 6" of snow from the 46" deep pond, Koi with Bristiolds and Veiltails.
Histoircally I have kept everything under ice in Ohio at 30" of water except the following Japanese Ryukins, Bristol Shubumnkins:badidea:, all types orf pearlscales:badidea:, and Moores. This winter I am retesting Bristols in my koi pond at 44". I could be a good test as we have had ice since Christmas. Note I use aeration in all my ponds all winter

THX GH:yess:

[Fishdork]

I have had American/Japanese style shubunkins live 12-15 years outside, but haven't had very good success with Bristol shubunkins. Ranchu have done well for me outdoors, but I've only had them for a few years. Short fins in general safer than long. Some types of telescopes do well in cold water (trial and error- try Demekins). Most people say Rykins don't do very well. Usually any fish that sink and get red fins (usu. Orandas) can be warmed up gradually and saved. Fish don't usually go from good health to death without a few weeks of warning. Another symptom is wobbly or difficult swimming. Generally fish with very little color or shine (pinky matts, mostly white calicoes, albinoes) don't do as well as dark fish. The fish I move outside partway through Winter go into a cooler chest with a heater. Thermal Compact heaters are one of the easiest to cut off the stop so the temp can be reduced about 5 degrees a day down to 40F or whatever the pond is. Usually fish should be at least a year old and about 3 inches and fat in the Fall to stay outside.
Norm