Unexplained lethargy

[demdamdemekins]

Instead of re-posting all the details here, can I just link the thread i started on another forum? Hope this is ok.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174508

[small_ranchu]

When did it happened? I had the same issue last two week ago. After water changed, everything went down. I guess it has something to do with our water since we both live in Brooklyn. Just 2 cents.

[GoldfishAdmin]

It's ok to post a link to other site(exception: no porn). But it will be easier for us to put description here unless you want us to reply there. :) Good luck.

[demdamdemekins]

I didn't want to re post since there's some pretty solid advice there, not to mention I didn't want to re post all of my params, the scoping sessions etc... Figured 2 boards brainstorming would be better than one.

[small_ranchu]

How are they right now?

[demdamdemekins]

Better than before, but I still catch them bottom sitting at times. Overall, their activity level has increased somewhat, which makes it hard to say what is wrong exactly. Still haven't done a gill check, but scoping some filter scum didn't turn anything odd up, and what I did find in the feces, I have not identified yet.

[Jed]

I think you have done everything right thus far, however, I think you need to check their gills.

[demdamdemekins]

Thanks Jed. Looking carefully at microscope scans online, I think the most likely culprit in terms of all the symptoms and considerations, is hexamita. Started on metromeds yesterday. Any ideas how to ensure I lick this for good this time around?

[Jed]

Hexamita? Are you seeing the sore on the wen? I follow Rick Hess' treatment to the letter.

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=168&parentId=12

[joe]

I have had the samething happen to me a couple after very large water changes. I think in Miami they put huge quantities of chloramines in the water to kill all of the bacteria since our water is usually very warm all year round. Right now in the winter, our water temps are 76 degrees. In summer water coming out of the tap runs around 83 degrees. My fish usually will breathe rapidly become lethargic and then by the next day are ok. And yes I do treat the water with novaqua and prime.

[demdamdemekins]

Thanks Joe. I'm pretty careful about treating my water during w/c though. Apparently, hexamita can also manifest itself as an internal infection. It's photos match the things I found in the poo scrape, and the symptoms of all the fish, taken as a whole, really seems to support the conclusion. Thing is, this is the 2nd time I will be treating with metromeds. It worries me that the first bout of treatment (albiet more than a few months ago) was not enough to completely eradicate the disease from my system. Any idea how I can handle this so it doesn't recur in a few months?

[Jed]

Rich,

How are the fish doing?

[demdamdemekins]

Great actually, they've gotten a lot more active since I started medicating. Christmas day is the last day of the cycle, and I'll scope their poo again then to see how successful the treatment was.

[Jed]

That's great news! I see a red spot on my red ranchu from Ken. Water change tomorrow. I will dab with peroxide tonight.

[Ajno]

That's great news! I see a red spot on my red ranchu from Ken. Water change tomorrow. I will dab with peroxide tonight.

Is it on the wen?

[Jed]

Ajno, it's on the wen.

[demdamdemekins]

The symptoms seem to be returning. Starting with the mysterious and very sudden death of one of my fish last week, some of my fish began bottom sitting again. Again, treatment with metronidazole food achieved almost immediate results, but obviously this does not seem to be a permanent solution. Scraping the poo turns up the same little dots I thought were hexamita last time. The poo however, seems a bit gelatinous, so I suspect some sort of internal bacterial infection. Which one however, is not so clear. Thinking about treating with a mixture of kanamycin and nitrofurazone or tetracycline at the same time. Any ideas of what else I can do?

[Cincy Ranchu]

Hey,
A couple of thoughts;


this could be flukes as the primary culprit, their lifecyle requires three treatments over 24 to 30 days, overwise you are letting eggs redevelop.
This disease could easily be Chilodinella, I would suggest the Hess book, for finding this elusive crtter.
Chillodinella, is very difficult to remove for ever once in a pond and even a tank.
Based on the loack of scope. I would try potaasium permagenate followed by a water change and then salt. I would repeat this twice a week for three weeks, It will probably do the flukes and the Chillodinella at the same time.


The Hess book has dosages, otherwise send me some private mail...

GH:yess:

[demdamdemekins]

Thanks for the fast reply Cincy! Having not performed a gill scrape, (too sqeamish and with entirely too shaky hands) I can only go by the color of the gills, which for all intents and purposes, appears healthy. I have the Hess book, will read up on chilondinella. I know diagnosis by poo is not the most reliable thing, but what should be made of the loose jelly like poo? Also, why does metronidazole seem to be relieving the symptoms, at least temporarily. Gonna get another poo and body scrape today, will see if my camera can capture what my eyes are seeing.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Place the fish on a wet piece of toweling, use a wet que tip to drag ever so lightly over the gill rakers.

Any slime in the gills?

[demdamdemekins]

Not that I can tell. I will give that a try when I get home from work. Managed to scope some feces last night. Saw something that moved in a jerky circular motion the way chilondinella is described. Would it show up in a fecal sample though?

[Cincy Ranchu]

This beast is only present on live fish, they typically hang out in the gills and along the lateral line. Ireally can't say if I have very seen a reference to them being in the fecal material.:youtellme:

[cowiche ponder]

Hey,
A couple of thoughts;


this could be flukes as the primary culprit, their lifecyle requires three treatments over 24 to 30 days, overwise you are letting eggs redevelop.
This disease could easily be Chilodinella, I would suggest the Hess book, for finding this elusive crtter.
Chillodinella, is very difficult to remove for ever once in a pond and even a tank.
Based on the loack of scope. I would try potaasium permagenate followed by a water change and then salt. I would repeat this twice a week for three weeks, It will probably do the flukes and the Chillodinella at the same time.


The Hess book has dosages, otherwise send me some private mail...

GH:yess:

PP does not kill flukes...may knock them back but does not kill them.

[demdamdemekins]

The Hess book outlines a procedure that apparently, because of the duration, kills flukes. Today, I noticed on one of the most heavily affected fish that there is some white flush along the gill perimeter though the gills still look cherry red. I am gonna dose PP as per the Hess reccomendations when the metro food cycle is over and see if that does not help. The goldfish share the tank with a few trapdoor snails. Any idea as to whether I should remove them or not?

[Cincy Ranchu]

PP does not kill flukes...may knock them back but does not kill them.

Sometimes when you don't know the truth, you should not make stuff up. I venture to say, I havbe been keeping fish since before you were born, And you are wrong