29 gallon wet dry

[Ichthius]

Here is a 29 gallon wet dry I built and installed on a customers 220 goldfish tank.

It has one cubic foot of bio balls, several layers of polyester pads.

It is drilled for an external pump as well as an overflow to drain.

You can see additional pictures of the tank and happy owner at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/DavidLains/JoeSGoldfishTank#

[small_ranchu]

Nice one.. Except for Bioball, they should not completely immerse under water, right?

[small_ranchu]

Any chance, do you have pic of Step by Step process? :)

[sweetshannon]

Any chance he has posted pics of his goldies somewhere? I would love to see that tank with fish!

[Ajno]

Do people use a HOB or canister in addition to this? I wondered since goldies love to poop. Or does it do a good job of flushing the poop out?

[Ichthius]

Bioballs are most effective at gas transfer when they are above water but work very well when submerged.

If they didn't work under water canister filters wouldn't work either.

This is a sump so it's only about 1/2 full of water so 2/3 of the balls are out of water and the rest are under water.

This is as step by step as I have.

I sold Joe 10 wakins and when he came back for 10 more he told me that he had secretly though I was selling him a bunch of junk and that he was going to have to add a bunch of filtration to keep up with the fish... after the second batch of fish he said the filter didn't even blink.

If you look at the pads they are two inches thick and there is one square foot of it in the top and another square foot (cut in half) on the bottom. These collect tons of junk and have more capcity than 5x of the largest canister out there.

A filter like this is essentially a canister filter but in my opinion far superior for a couple reasons: 1 it is open to the environment so it can pick up oxygen. 2 it is open to the environment so it is very simple to clean. 3 the volume is 30 gallons vs just a couple compared to a canister. 4 you can keep your heaters in the sump 5 you can put all the bags of carbon or coral or ? in the sump 6 did I mention they are open? They are so much easier to maintain than a canister.

We put a finer mesh pad on the pad on top of the bioballs that is the main thing that is frequently cleaned. The other pads don't need to be cleaned that often. Maybe every couple months to remove the carbon that has built up.

This and a uv is the only filtration on the tank and it gets a 10% daily automated water change.

There are about 25 large fish in the tank.

[Ajno]

Very interesting. My only problem is I don't have any overflows. I am planning to upgrade within the next year and think I want to try this. Is this setup fairly quiet? Is there a risk of overflowing? I assume not with overflows. How did you drill the holes in the glass tank?

[Ichthius]

Once you get a diamond drill and the right set up drilling tanks is a piece of cake. Knock wood I've never cracked a tank and have drilled at least 100 holes. The thicker the glass the better.

When you first set up a tank with a sump you fill the tank just to where it's draining the the sump. Let that settle till it stops. Then fill the sump to say two inches from the top. Start the pump and let the system run.

Where the water is in the sump once everything has evened out mark this as your maximum running water level. That way if the power goes out your sump can catch all the water.

I stay away from the skimmer boxes as they are a pain to maintain and if they get air in them they can cause a flood.

Just drill, once you do you won't go back.

<}}}><

[Ajno]

I am interested in building one, but am a chicken when it comes to drilling holes, especially drilling into glass. I may wait until I get my 180 and get it reef ready. What size tank do you use for the sump?

[Ichthius]

That one was a 29 gallon.

For a 55 I'd use a 20 long.

You couldn't use a 29 for a 220 without an overflow to drain and a float valve to refill.

[Ajno]

How about for a 125 and a 180?

[Ichthius]

Just use the biggest tank you can fit and still be able to work on it.

Ever tank is different with it's overflows, pumps and etc. There's always a little trial and error.

If you can't fit a large tank under the stand you can also inter connect multiple sumps together to accommodate the volume needed.

[small_ranchu]

Please correct me if I am wrong since I am not 100% handy person. According to my reading online, we can use Rubbermaid for sump and it is a lot cheaper than regular tank, right?

Also what do you think about PVC overflow instead of drilling tank?

[small_ranchu]

Also, what is your opinion of using Kitchen Scrubber? People in monster fish world claim, scrubber is a cheap alternative for bio ball.

[Ichthius]

I've used many pvc continuous siphon overflows in the past but would never go back especially if you can not risk a flood. They get air in them and are a hassle to maintain.

I would buy an over flow box before going back to pvc siphons.

You can use rubbermaid sumps and I do all the time but if it's under a stand I'd definitely go with a glass tank as they are not to much more expensive, can be shallower with a larger foot print and are easy to see into. Out of sight out of mind is an issue and you can not put heaters in a rubbermaid, they will melt through.

The scrubbers are a poor replacement. You can get a 5 gallon bucket on line for about $40. How much is 5 gallons of pot scrubbers? They eventually get brittle and break down. Bio balls last for ever.

You can also use lava rock but it is dirty.

[small_ranchu]

For PVC overflow, is it something are you talking about? Please see attachment from monsterfishkeepers site

Pot Scrubber only cost $1 for 6 pieces. I am not sure how many pieces we are going to need to fill up 5 gallons tank though.

[Ichthius]

Exactly.

Here is the oldest example I can find:
http://goldfishgarage.blogspot.com/2008/12/constant-level-device.html

I've been a fan of bio balls for a long time and have another media that has been growing on me. It's called matala and is like giant rubbery ramen sheets:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MATALA-4-COLOR-PK-POND-FiLTER-MATs-Koi-Media-Pad-24x39_W0QQitemZ330293715352QQcmdZViewItemQQptZOutd oor_Decor?hash=item330293715352&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1419%7C66%3A3%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A100

It comes in 4 or 5 different densities in sheets 20 x 48 or 24 x 30 and can be cut into squares.

a single sheet is about $35 bucks and can be cut to create a filter. They make a small filter but you can do a very similar thing with a tank and a couple bulk sheets:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Matala-Biosteps-10-Koi-Pond-Water-Filtration-Bio-Filter_W0QQitemZ230310728532QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item230310728532&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1419%7C66%3A3%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A100

[Ajno]

So something like this is no good?
http://www.eshopps.com/Siphon/Self-StartSiphon.pdf

Do you notice that with a sump you can have more fish in your tanks? I tend to stay around 15-20 gallons per fish.

BTW I'd have to have it flood proof. I live in a manufactured home.

[bekko]

Wet/dry overhhead filters are easy to configure, easy to access and do not require a siphon or overflow. But for aesthetics, they are usually a little harder to hide.

-steve

[Ichthius]

Hi Ajno

Yes that's the fancy version of the pvc pipes.

If you use the pipes or this device you'll want to put a little puller pump on it to remove any air the gets into the siphon:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Aqua-Lifter-Suction-Air-Pump-AW-20-NEW-TOM-OSCAR_W0QQitemZ260317990669QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item260317990669&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1419%7C66%3A3%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A100

This little pump will normally just pump a little water out of the top of the siphon but if air gets in there it can also pump it out. It's a little insurance to keep you siphon primed.

[Ajno]

I do want to try a sump but I'll wait till I get my 180 gallon. It'll be an acrylic
and get the overflows with it. Do you think having a closed system like canisters make are more likely to have water quality issues (bacteria,parasites, and less dissolved O2) than having a sump?

[Ichthius]

Hi Ajno

I'm not sure there is any difference with things like parasites but a sump has huge advantages in the oxygen area and possibly even the bacteria area.

The wet drys are so efficient that they consume all the waste on a single pass leaving less nutrients for bacteria in the water column.

I would say that a wet dry sump can support 2 to 3x the number of fish that a canister can. That's just a guess but it could even be higher. The other benefit a sump has especially on a heavily stocked tank is that as it clogs the filter still gets tons of oxygen. Ever have a dirty canister go anaerobic? It's very nasty.

If the power goes out a sump can still breath, a canister is sealed and all the bacteria will use up the oxygen and suffocate. Then when the power comes back on all the nasty water in the canister get shot into the tank.

[Ajno]

Thanks, kinda answered my question. I definitely want to try it but I think I'll wait till I get an acrylic and use the 55 in my kid's room as the sump. Maybe I'll but a drill bit and practice on my empty 20 gallon. Do you have an aglae scaper or refugium in your sump?

[Ichthius]

No Algae scrubber, just change the water. Nitrates are easy to test for but they are not all we are concerned with when doing water changes. All sorts of things can build up in a system so change more water more often.

[small_ranchu]

How often do you have to change/clean polyester pads? I have to clean mine every two weeks. Is it typical?

[bekko]

I finally accepted that fact than I am not responsible enough to keep up with cleaning mechanical filters and threw away all foam, pads and other stuff designed to trap debris. The only filter media is submerged moving kaldness or coral rubble in an overhead TT arrangement. Both types of media help digest the solids, but do not accumulate solids. When solids accumulate, they accumulate on the bottom of the tank/pond where they are obvious and provide a glaring reminder to do some housekeeping. Since the fish have the opportunity and desire to routinely plow through debris accumulations, the wastes do not become anaerobic and some of the material is recycled through the fish one more time.

-steve

[Ichthius]

Hi Steve

I like kaldness but find that it gets loose. I've been using bioballs more and more, I put them in a laundry bag so I can move all the media at once.

If you don't want organics to collect you can trickle over them as usual or my preferred lower energy method is to just have them submerged in the bag in a sump. Aerate them if you don't want solids but I like to have it collect then I can shut off the pump, slosh the bag around a bit and dump the dirty water in the sump.

I have one system where the water up wells through the bioballs and it collects tons of organics. When it's time to clean I just push them down a bit and dump the resulting dirty water.

[joe]

I have a 29 gallon wet-dry trickle filter like the one pictured on my two hundred gallon. It works very well. I have a sump built in the tank loaded with bio balls (water flows on and around them) then goes down into the 29 gallon tank (additional bio balls ) and recirculates back into the tank. I do not even use any kind of carbon (just do very large weekly water changes) and my water is usually excellent

[Ajno]

How about this
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~action~view~idProduct~CR1515~idCategor y~FIOFEB~category~External_Boxes-Overflow_Box-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~~tab~4.html

would there be an issue with this?

[Cincy Ranchu]

I agree with David, drilling the tanks, especillay the side walls is a piece of cake. I got a bit from Aquatic Ecosystems, built a woodencraddle for the drill to prevent wobble and C-clamped it to the tank. Then My buddy Greg drilled as I misted with water. We drilled 45 tanks and never had an issue. I'll look for a pic.

As for the Bioballs and media I think that this is fine unless silt buids up in the pad or bioballs. My experience suggests that when this happens, you are into the world of fin rot, Perhaps the UV will save you, I suggest a routine back flush .... Nice pics David>:D<

[Ichthius]

Hi Gary

Yes if you let organics build up it can be a bit of an issue. On my heavily stocked systems I keep the balls in a laundry bag so you can just shake it around or take it out and give it a quick rinse.

The great thing about the pads is the do collect all the mulm/silt/detritous so you just have to make sure you clean it.

I use Potassium permanganate occasionally and it lets you know very quickly if you have to much gunk in the system as it decolors very quickly. Then you know it's time to clean house.

Next year lets do a bit of plumbing at your place. We could turn a few of your 20s into a little system.

[Ajno]

How do you do the PP? It doesn't kill any of your bio? I do like using pads for the mechanical part. I just don't use them in my FX5.

[Ichthius]

In solution. If done right is doesn't kill you bio filtration.

[afnaveils]

What is the rule of thumb for chosing a pump? How many times the volume to be filtered? Let's say I have a 600 gallon set-up and I built a single wet-dry filter for it, what pump capacity do I need? Of course, the question is for goldfish...

[Ichthius]

How many tanks?
What size?
How many levels?
Distance from sump water level to top tank for each level?
How long will the horizontal pipes run to supply water
to each tank?
Will the system be the only filtration? Or will there be box/sponge
filters?

Can you post a sketch?

[afnaveils]

How many tanks?

10 x 33 to 50 gals tanks
5 tubs x 125 gals but at 6 inches deep will be 60 gals each

What size?

36 long x 12 to 18 wide x 15 to 18 deep

How many levels?

2 levels

Distance from sump water level to top tank for each level?

Less than 5 feet

How long will the horizontal pipes run to supply water
to each tank?

For furthest tank 20 feet, but pipes will be looped.

Will the system be the only filtration? Or will there be box/sponge
filters?

System will be main filtration system. Any other may or may not be added.

Can you post a sketch?

Will try soon.

Thank you!

[Ichthius]

Sounds good.

What is your sump going to be?

Do not loop the water. You'll end up with low flow dead zones. Loop air. Water is linear.

[sanggarra]

Digging this back up because I am thinking of venturing into making a sump for my 40 gallon...

David,
Is there any advantage to add a 2nd baffle before the return pump?

What is the best draining method you would suggest assuming I will attempt drilling the tank?

Would a 10 gallon tank be too small? If yes, then would a 20 gallon tall an overkill? :p


Thank you much in advance for David and anyone's input on these questions and helping out a noob.

[Redcap]

My 90 gallon is made of tempered glass. I want to replace my two Emperer 400s with a sump. Can I drill the tempered glass?

[jenglish]

Digging this back up because I am thinking of venturing into making a sump for my 40 gallon...

David,
Is there any advantage to add a 2nd baffle before the return pump?

What is the best draining method you would suggest assuming I will attempt drilling the tank?

Would a 10 gallon tank be too small? If yes, then would a 20 gallon tall an overkill? :p


Thank you much in advance for David and anyone's input on these questions and helping out a noob.

Well, my 40 breeder has a sump. It's not my goldie setup but the plumbing is the same.

I use a 3 baffle system. One the water goes over, one it goes under, and a third it goes over again. I think it would probably work with just one over and one under. THis may be the difference between my reef and putting baffles in for a FW tank is that I use a protein skimmer that will put out microbubbles and microbubbles seem to hang around longer in SW. I need the baffle that the water flows under to help remove bubbles before the return pump. The lower baffles determine the water level in the drain side.

I like a slotted overflow box and a side drilled hole. I'm not a big fan of drilling in the bottom of the tank... just makes me nervous. Exactly how you do your overflow can depend on how comfortable you are with risk of a wet floor and the amount of gurgling you are willing to live with.

I prefer as large of a sump as possible. Larger sump adds more system volume (and thus parameter stability) as well as more room to hold excess water from drainage in a power outage. You always have to think about how to keep the DT from flooding the sump in a power outage or ways to keep the sump from flooding DT from a clog.

I have a low stand, about 28 inches. A 20H is hard to work in and if it had to be replaced would require draining and removing the top display tank.

[jenglish]

My 90 gallon is made of tempered glass. I want to replace my two Emperer 400s with a sump. Can I drill the tempered glass?

No, tempered glass will shatter if drilled. Are you sure it is all tempered or only the bottom? If it is all tempered you can look into a siphon overflow system.

[sanggarra]

My 90 gallon is made of tempered glass. I want to replace my two Emperer 400s with a sump. Can I drill the tempered glass?

No, tempered glass will shatter if drilled. Are you sure it is all tempered or only the bottom? If it is all tempered you can look into a siphon overflow system.

Guys,
Is there a way to determine tempered glass when the tank is filled?

[jenglish]

The way people usually will check is to look up specs on that particular model. If that can't be found a pair of UV blocking glasses is said to be able to tell the difference. When looking at a tempered piece of glass you should be able to see a rainbow like pattern on the glass similar to when you see oil on the surface of water. I don't know that if anyone has tried this while a tank is full but I would think it should work the same.

You can also see it by viewing white LCD screen through the panel. If it looks broken up through the panel the glass is tempered. Tempering causes minor distortions when light shines through and this is what you are seeing is the way the light scatters.

That being said I have never tried it myself on a tank I wasn't sure was not tempered. Very few glass tanks that I know of temper the side panels, only the bottom. But that is no guarantee. I advise the safest way is manufacturing specs.

[sanggarra]

...
I use a 3 baffle system. One the water goes over, one it goes under, and a third it goes over again. I think it would probably work with just one over and one under.
Not sure I understand "baffle" correctly, I tho baffle means 2-3 glass walls mounted at alternated height to eliminate bubbles. I will refer this as "bubble filter" for now.
David's design in this thread has 2 pieces of glass on the input side.
I ponder if another "bubble filter" before the return sump side is beneficial. If yes, what are the benefits?


I like a slotted overflow box and a side drilled hole. I'm not a big fan of drilling in the bottom of the tank... just makes me nervous. Exactly how you do your overflow can depend on how comfortable you are with risk of a wet floor and the amount of gurgling you are willing to live with.

So which overflow has higher risk? Which has higher gurgling?
I am looking at the BeanAnimal design here (http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx). Looks to me this is the "best" so far in terms of low risk and noise. However, it requires 3 holes and 3 plumbings on the drain side. What are your take on this? I have never done any of this. I am afraid to royally messed up, flooding and killing the fishes.


I prefer as large of a sump as possible. Larger sump adds more system volume (and thus parameter stability) as well as more room to hold excess water from drainage in a power outage. You always have to think about how to keep the DT from flooding the sump in a power outage or ways to keep the sump from flooding DT from a clog.

I have a low stand, about 28 inches. A 20H is hard to work in and if it had to be replaced would require draining and removing the top display tank.
Is there a point when the sump is just overkill? Besides, regardless of how good the filtration is water changes are a must.
I am hoping with a sump setup I can do water changes every 7-10 days with 6-7 medium goldies in a 40 gallon. Right now I do WC every 3-5 days, with 5 young goldies.

Am I day dreaming?

[jenglish]

Not sure I understand "baffle" correctly, I tho baffle means 2-3 glass walls mounted at alternated height to eliminate bubbles. I will refer this as "bubble filter" for now.
David's design in this thread has 2 pieces of glass on the input side.
I ponder if another "bubble filter" before the return sump side is beneficial. If yes, what are the benefits?

Yes, that is essentially the main point is to eliminate bubbles, and to set the height of the water in the chambers. In my set up the water goes over a baffle (this one sets the water height in the first chamber) then the water goes under the next one(This one traps bubbles because the flow is much too slow to take a bubble under it) and then a third baffle the water goes over again to the section the return pump is in
So which overflow has higher risk? Which has higher gurgling?
I am looking at the BeanAnimal design here (http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx). Looks to me this is the "best" so far in terms of low risk and noise. However, it requires 3 holes and 3 plumbings on the drain side. What are your take on this? I have never done any of this. I am afraid to royally messed up, flooding and killing the fishes.

Beananimal is probably the best setup there is. The tank I have has only one hole which is very large. If it were too clog there would be a small flood. It is louder than a siphon system or a beananimal that primarily uses siphon but does not rely on it.
Is there a point when the sump is just overkill? Besides, regardless of how good the filtration is water changes are a must.
I am hoping with a sump setup I can do water changes every 7-10 days with 6-7 medium goldies in a 40 gallon. Right now I do WC every 3-5 days, with 5 young goldies.

Am I day dreaming?
There is really no such thing as overkill. I have seen sumps twice the size of the display. SOme folks will have a upstairs display and a agriculture tub in their basement. But remember the sump itself only provides a place to put filtration, it is not itself filtering anything. It is however adding water volume so there is some dilution.

[jenglish]

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/userpix/47_a_sump2_2.jpg


You can see the baffle section in this diagram (not my diagram). This design calls for another section between the baffles and the return. In a 10 or a 20 gallon that can make it pretty tight. HTH

[sanggarra]

Still planning my sump. :) Yes I tend to overthink stuff before I jump in.

Is a refugium even needed for fresh water? If not I will most likely follow what David did in this thread.

What kind of flow rate is appropriate for fresh water? Specifically, my tank is 40g and planning to either use a 10g or 15g as sump.