Out crosses -Philly X Fantail

[Cincy Ranchu]

All and Norm + Guenther,

If you cross a metallic Philadelphia Veilatil to a American Calico Fantail, it seems the Veiltail is 50% in the metallic oofspring ( which is 50% of the cross) and Veiltails that are calico are 5% of the offspring ( calico is 50% of the cross). Colors are too early to discuss!

THX GH:interest::exact:

[Guenther]

Philadelphia Veilatil to a American Calico Fantail...

Gary,
a very intersting first info!
Do you plan to show us some photos?

[Fishdork]

Question was a little confusing. Yes, metallic X calico produces 50/50 mix. If the metallic was not from a calico line, I cull all the metallics and select fish for their calico coloring (black spots, dark orange on 25% of body). Outcrossing to lines not selected for calico color (any solid metallic line-blue metallic, orange, white, black) produces a lot of mostly white fish or orange and white fish (w/black spots). Don't expect blue in the calicoes the first generation (or ever??). If you select the ones that show a lot of orange, you may regret it in later generations when you have too much orange. Since you crossed a metallic to calico, none of the fry are matt, no matter how pink and plain they are, they are just ugly nacreous.
If the metallic parent decolors at some point, then the metallic young will probably change to orange also (if you do keep some), when they are older than the parents were. At the same time the calico young will lose their black and blue also.
What was your question? I assume veils are homozygous for tail type and pass it on to all fry equally. Tail length and depth of forking don't seem to be pure recessive, the fry will probably be somewhere between the parents in type. First generation crosses tend toward the short side of the mix, I think.
Norm

[Sabine]

...Outcrossing to lines not selected for calico color (any solid metallic line-blue metallic, orange, white, black) produces a lot of mostly white fish or orange and white fish (w/black spots)...
Norm

Do metallic blue fish like the blue phoenix or blue veil decolour to white (or orange?) with age? If so, at what age do they loose their blue?

[Virginia ranchu]

Hi Sabine,

I have had blue phoenix for four years now, and none of them has ever changed color at all. I know that Russ Taylor kept some wild colored (bronze) phoenix for a couple of years and they eventually decolored to interesting red and and black fish.

Rob

[afnaveils]

All and Norm + Guenther,

If you cross a metallic Philadelphia Veilatil to a American Calico Fantail, it seems the Veiltail is 50% in the metallic oofspring ( which is 50% of the cross) and Veiltails that are calico are 5% of the offspring ( calico is 50% of the cross). Colors are too early to discuss!

THX GH:interest::exact:


What if the Fantail was a metallic? Would there be a larger percentage of Veiltails OR 50% of veiltails and the rest, intermediate tail from short forked to veil? Any idea?

[Fishdork]

Gerard,
I don't have personal experience outcrossing veils. However, I can't think of any instances where tail type is influenced by the color of the fish. (Size and quality of tail may be influenced by overall vigor of the fish- compare metallic to matt sibling, but I digress..) Also, I've never heard anyone imply that expression of tail type is sex linked. (fin length, hood growth and color intensity- yes, but again....) I think Gary's reference to 50% was meant to imply that 50% of each offspring's genetics come from the veil parent, so they all have some veil genes (not that 50% will look like veils). I woudn't expect any first generation young to have a tail quite as square as the veil parent. I'm pretty sure Gary's reference to 5% was a typing error and was meant to be 50%.
The expression of veil tails, including depth of fork, length, and angle the tail is held at is complicated so there is a lot of variation in a spawn. This implies they weren't precisely homozygous as I said before, but I was generalizing.

Sabine, When and if a blue fish turns white depends on many things, just like the decoloring of wild colored fish. Some lines of comets change color at a an inch. Jikins and Veiltails often don't change until they are 2 or 3 inches long. Some lines of blue fish commonly change to white about three years of age, others usually stay blue their entire lives. If you buy a new line of fish without knowing their history, only time will tell. The same decoloring gene acts the same way if it is introduced into your blue metallic line. An article by Takao Kajishima says decoloring is expressed in 2 pairs of genes so that there are 4 pieces in each fish (2 from each parent) that determine the timing. Generally, fish with 4 decoloring pieces change the first year, 3 pieces change their second year of life, and so on. Fish with one decoloring piece often change at three to four years of age. The age doesn't tell exactly how many parts a fish has, but it gives some idea. Fish over 4 years old and still blue probably don't have a decoloring chromosome, but they still may turn white with old age or other influencing factors at 5-7 years. Timing of color change can also be affected by temperature changes, growth rate, food type, etc.
Usually knowing about previous generations and using fish have stable color should help you predict if the next generation will be stable. Outcrossing blue metallics into orange fish introduces the decoloring gene which can take 4 years to express itself, so I generally avoid such a cross if my goal is stable blue color.
Norm

[Sabine]

Thank you, Norm! Again, things are a lot more complicated than I thought.
I just googled for " Takao Kajishima" and found lots of interesting articles to read, thank you.

[afnaveils]

Thanks Norm! My understanding of Gary's post is that, of the expected 50% metallic offsprings, 50% of them will have Veiltail. And, of the expected 50% Calico offsprings, 5% of them will have Veiltail.

Maybe Gary can clarify his initial statement as to whether he was talking about genotypes or phenotypes.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Sorry for the confusion , Gerrad has it described Correctly. Sorry been on vacation, skorkeling and wha

Hope to condense Streamson's observations this week when I get over the jet lag, like 17 hours of travel a dn a 5 hour time zone difference...le watching

[afnaveils]

I've added a few pictures of my Philly Veils in my album. Unfortunately, they are all males. Trying to find a female somewhere. Meanwhile, I'll try an outcross with a fantail and another with a Butterfly Dragoneye (telescope). :unsure: Hoping they'll have eggs though. :cross_fingers: