Buying best of the batch or nothing at all?

[Lennard]

I'm not going to sleep at all tonight!

My friend having a petshop have ordered 5 breeds of 50 goldfish each from Singapore and I will be there when they arrive tomorrow. He ordered Hooded Pearlscales, Orandas, Lionheads, Bubbleeyes and Pompoms. I am hoping to get some quality fish with his import.

I know I must not buy any if they are not of a high quality...........but shouldn't I maybe buy the best of a batch in the hope when breeding them there would be a chance to get some nice quality fish to start a breeding line?

To help my judging the fish tomorrow I have studied standards on the Orandas and Lionheads.......and I don't even know which variety of Lionheads is coming!

(And the 50 gallon tank is cycled and ready!)

I do know the answer to my question:angel:- ........ but I don't know if I will have the discipline to resist buying fish tomorrow :youtellme:.

I hope you can understand the stress I am going through!

Lennard

[Ranchufan16]

I'm not going to sleep at all tonight!

My friend having a petshop have ordered 5 breeds of 50 goldfish each from Singapore and I will be there when they arrive tomorrow. He ordered Hooded Pearlscales, Orandas, Lionheads, Bubbleeyes and Pompoms. I am hoping to get some quality fish with his import.

I know I must not buy any if they are not of a high quality...........but shouldn't I maybe buy the best of a batch in the hope when breeding them there would be a chance to get some nice quality fish to start a breeding line?

To help my judging the fish tomorrow I have studied standards on the Orandas and Lionheads.......and I don't even know which variety of Lionheads is coming!

(And the 50 gallon tank is cycled and ready!)

I do know the answer to my question:angel:- ........ but I don't know if I will have the discipline to resist buying fish tomorrow :youtellme:.

I hope you can understand the stress I am going through!

Lennard

Somehting htat has been brought up before and will always be brought up, no biggy! So so fish, will breed so so fry...will become so so adults....it is entirely up to the purchaser. I have done this thinking that I will someday get some good fish and then realized...well in order to have quality fry you have to have quality parent fish. Again, entirely up to the purchaser.

[Ichthius]

Buy the best fish you can. If they are your only option you can learn a lot by using them and chances are they fry you raise will be better than the adults you bought.

I'd rather have so so fish than no fish, especially when you're in a goldfish desert!

[HTH]

So so fish, will breed so so fry...will become so so adults....it is entirely up to the purchaser. I have done this thinking that I will someday get some good fish and then realized...well in order to have quality fry you have to have quality parent fish. Again, entirely up to the purchaser.

Seems to me that improving the line is what selective breeding is all about. If we can only do as good as the parent stock it would be hopeless. But I expect for most people what you have said is the observable outcome. Or did I miss something ?

[nygold]

I know I must not buy any if they are not of a high quality...........but shouldn't I maybe buy the best of a batch in the hope when breeding them there would be a chance to get some nice quality fish to start a breeding line?


To me it's more important to choose a direction first then the fish second.
Find a type of fish that YOU want to breed, you may like many types like most of us. So if you find that your friend has some very good pearlscales and YOU like them and want to breed them get them. You can breed them and then breed the F1's to the parents or the F1's to other F1's to iron out any flaws. Then you can hopefully turn your (very goods) into (greats) then (show stoppers).
The things I look at when looking for breeders is the body, look for a nice full symmetrical body. Then look at the position of the fins and tail and there proportion to the body. Also look close at the mouth if the mouth looks a bit screwy don't breed it.
I hope this helps and keep us posted.

Don

[bigbettadan]

Good universal point. Most newer fanciers get could up in fins/hood etc... but it all starts with body in all breeds.

Dan

[Lennard]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

All the anticipation ended in disappointment because only the Orandas and the Bubbleyes were delivered. In the place of the Lionheads they send some nicely colored calico Fantails but not one in that batch that tickled my fancy.

I bought two high back Orandas. Will post a pic of them after a week because I want them to settle in. I can see that they are stressed from their trip.

Lennard

[Lennard]

To me it's more important to choose a direction first then the fish second.
Find a type of fish that YOU want to breed, you may like many types like most of us.
I hope this helps and keep us posted.

Don

My feeling towards a breeding line still is to try and breed domed scale Orandas.

Lucky for me my bronze/dark female is not too bad looking and she is spawning every fourth day for the last two months. I have two wen/hooded Pearlscale males and I mated her this morning with both of them. I got more than a hundred eggs. The previous spawn I mated her with my domed scale Oranda and the fry are looking better than the mating with the blue Oranda - all of the new spawn(about 60 fry) has double tails. In three months from now I will know if the dome scale dream is coming to life.

Thanks for the positive reply.

Lennard

[Lennard]

Buy the best fish you can.

I'd rather have so so fish than no fish, especially when you're in a goldfish desert!

I have only bought two so I feel proud of myself. I will keep looking for quality fish.

And I have finally decided I will concentrate on Orandas, Pearlscale and hybrids between them.

Lennard

[Ichthius]

I have only bought two so I feel proud of myself. I will keep looking for quality fish.

And I have finally decided I will concentrate on Orandas, Pearlscale and hybrids between them.

Lennard

Go get a couple more if you can. It's better to have a few more ok fish from the same batch than to mix and match. Sometimes when you cross unrelated fish unusual results will happen. With two fish you're 50/50 on whether or not you'll get a pair.

PS you can always get rid of the fish you don't want in the future but you can't go back in time to get more...

[Lennard]

If we can only do as good as the parent stock it would be hopeless.

Good

Good point.

I know with inbreeding budgies in two breeding lines the offspring get weaker but when you take the strongest of the two breeding lines and breed them you get a better quality budgie.

I know genetics for Goldfish works differently but I hope for some good quality fish when I start breeding - even if it is one or two out of a 100.

Lennard

[Lennard]

Go get a couple more if you can. It's better to have a few more ok fish from the same batch than to mix and match. Sometimes when you cross unrelated fish unusual results will happen. With two fish you're 50/50 on whether or not you'll get a pair.


I was wondering about that because my current Oranda are not high backs. When mating these new ones with wen/hooded Pearlscales I will get a whole new kind of Oranda looking different than the offspring of my current Bronze/dark Oranda?

Maybe do two different breeding lines?

Thanks for the reply.

Lennard

[Ichthius]

I was wondering about that because my current Oranda are not high backs. When mating these new ones with wen/hooded Pearlscales I will get a whole new kind of Oranda looking different than the offspring of my current Bronze/dark Oranda?

Maybe do two different breeding lines?

Thanks for the reply.

Lennard

Not sure. If they are close enough they may give great results. If not you could end up with a major step backwards. Sometimes different genes can give similar phenotypes. Cross to fish that look similar and you get a bunch of wild types or less developed fancies than the original stocks.

[Lennard]

but it all starts with body in all breeds.

Dan

Yes, especially some breeds - they do have headgrowth but don't have enough fin :) . - makes it easier, doesn't it? :angel:

Lennard

[Lennard]

One of the fish did some head standing for a day or two and the other one was resting on the gravel but feeding them red/earthworms and some peas they are doing well now.

The better one is a female but the other one I will still have to determine.

One of the fish had some fish lice (Argulus) on the tail and I am treating the whole tank with salt and Costapur (Sera). It is recommended for ick and other parasites. Anyone know if the above will kill the lice?

I did go and have a look at the other Orandas but did not buy any.

Lennard

[Ichthius]

Don't know the product but most likely not. Do you know the active ingredient?

The best drug for lice I know of is Dimilin. Several manufacturers sell it for pond applications.

[Lennard]

Don't know the product but most likely not. Do you know the active ingredient?

The best drug for lice I know of is Dimilin. Several manufacturers sell it for pond applications.

malachite green oxalate
formaldehyde
aqua purificata ad

Lennard

[Ichthius]

Seems like formalin doesn't work but potassium permanganate does. I use it all the time and it treats most things. I'd get some to have on hand.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19062755:

Abstract
Harmful infections by ectoparasites of the genus Argulus occur repeatedly in freshwater fish farming operations where the management has largely been ineffective. Preventative methods and regular monitoring are rarely applied, so that chemical interventions become necessary. According to the Integrated Pest Management (IPM) approach, a sustainable management or control program for a parasite should be based on knowledge of the ecology of the parasite along with adoption of several prevention and control methods, the application of which is dependent upon the prevailing infection level. The application of multiple management tactics is especially important because parasites can develop resistance to chemical treatments. We took a step towards sustainable management of Argulus populations and tested the effect of several types of treatments on survival of A. coregoni at different stages in its life cycle. Parasite juveniles and adults were highly sensitive to potassium permanganate treatments (0.01 g l(-1)), which lead to 100% mortality, whereas treatments with formalin (0.6 ml l(-1)), sodium chloride (20 g l(-1)) or malachite-green/formalin were not effective. Mechanical treatment by shaking infected fish in a hand net was an effective means of detaching parasites from the fish, and resulted in > 80% decreases in parasite numbers. Compared to eggs in control treatments, both drying over a minimum period of 24 h and formalin treatments (120 ml l(-1)) led to significantly higher mortality of A. coregoni eggs. Other treatments, i.e. drying over a period of 15 h, baths in potassium permanganate (1 g l(-1)) or sodium chloride (50 g l(-1)), did not significantly affect the viability of eggs. Based on the present results and previously published papers, we present an initial framework showing how A. coregoni populations could be managed effectively.

[Lennard]

Thanks for the information - will read up on using it.

Lennard

[Ichthius]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA02700.pdf

[opera]

Good

Good point.

I know with inbreeding budgies in two breeding lines the offspring get weaker but when you take the strongest of the two breeding lines and breed them you get a better quality budgie.

I know genetics for Goldfish works differently but I hope for some good quality fish when I start breeding - even if it is one or two out of a 100.

Lennard

I think the best bet is to think about one or two out of 500~1000. This way you would not disappointed... It is tough to get the better fry than the parents.

[Lennard]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA02700.pdf


I have read the link and remembered that many years ago when I kept Goldfish I have used potassium permanganate to sterilize my tanks and equipment before setting them up again.

The problem I have created myself is that the tank that I have placed the new fish in is also planted and I do not know if the lice has already propagated and as far as I know and from what I have read potassium permanganate is poisonous to plants?

This morning when I inspected the fish the fish lice (Argulus) is gone - I hope it died and is not just hiding somewhere.

This afternoon I did a 75% water change with a higher salt solution and I have repeated the dose of the Costapur. According to the manufacturer it can also be repeated on the 7th day.

Will report back if the lice return. If so I will clean out the tank and sterilize everything.

Thanks for the link.

Lennard

[Ichthius]

PP is safe for hornwort, vallisneria, anubias, java moss, java fern, elodia.

I've killed more plants with formalin/malachite than PP.

Hopefully they are not a large problem for you.

[Lennard]

I think the best bet is to think about one or two out of 500~1000. This way you would not disappointed... It is tough to get the better fry than the parents.

I think I am going to start a new breed, I will name them ..................GOLDFISH:yess:

But on a serious note, I really do enjoy raising the fry - even if they are not going to be show winners.

Lennard

[Lennard]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

All the anticipation ended in disappointment because only the Orandas and the Bubbleyes were delivered. In the place of the Lionheads they send some nicely colored calico Fantails but not one in that batch that tickled my fancy.

I bought two high back Orandas. Will post a pic of them after a week because I want them to settle in. I can see that they are stressed from their trip.

Lennard

Both the fishes died. The one started to do head stands and the other one bottom sitting. The first mentioned one died three days ago and the other one last night.

I am not going to make a big deal of it - the imported fish are handled so many times and get stressed from going through so many hands(water) that they can't get over the shock.

(I still can't figure out how they let the fish go through customs if they had lice?)

Lennard

[Ichthius]

The lice weren't listed on the documents.

Vet inspections are 99% paperwork and lice are not a reportable disease.