Vote Your Favorite Sideview Ranchu Body type

[judge]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Which body type do you like best? If your favorite is not here and if you have pic or video of that fish, please feel free to list that fish here.

#1
Mkfh35S5Cq8
#2
F-Ac6Aa8LMM
#3
jmUDhcTZxlk
#4
fP9ZhpxGn-c
#5
0WGZjPWBxC4

[harzan]

....but I think #2 is my favorite.

I have sakura but are still small. I hope to cull out and can see if my phone can get a good view of them. I know I do not cull as well as you do, so there may be too many.

[afnaveils]

I don't have side view ranchus but I agree with Harzan for #2.

I think that #5 can be used to develop a calico top view.

[judge]

Thanks for your answers I am currently leaning towards No #1 and No #3 body types. Looks like Ideal is in the mind of a person.

Harris- Can't wait to see yours. I think you will reach to blue faster than I am. Your fish seems to grow a lot faster and have more colors. I love your Azumas and their colors. Hope you keep breeding them.

afnaveils - I imagined a top view lover would notice #5. ha ha... :) Normally its a cull in Side View. I lost quite a lot of good top-viewish ones (better than the one that you see in #5. Lost many to OKC heat wave and disease out break.) I just wish the tail tuck a bit more sharper angle on that one.

[harzan]

I will try to get a vid of a group of breeders i bought earlier this year from Ed at KimmiKoi, I may have the spelling incorrect. Almost like a Kirin. Trying to get the blues to stick. I have a hard time with the Edonishiki holding the blue. I am unsure if it is a genetic fading thing or the heat here. I believe even the jAPANESE HAVE A HARD TIME TO KEEP THE BLUE.....I think this because that is why we have Sakura! I also think the Japanese lose their blue since I believe they are crossing out with TVR to get the square head and TVR tail.

My Sakura spawn seems to have some black or blue in the small fry but assume it will fade. My breeders are mixed in with TVR, so the heads are a little squared, but like John said...hard to get the tail. This is all for kicks anyways....I am on the same boat as you "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"...Anyone want to start a shark fin variety? I still have some from my Azuma...hahah! I still got to love them since they give be blues that do not fade!

I had TVR and Shukin mixed in with the Kirin and have a few fry....will see how they turn out.

[judge]

Hmmm... interesting.

What is shark fin variety? Can you show it to us?

Yea. Your Azumas have blue, black and purple colors. Looks really cool.

Please do show us video of your breeder group. I remember you have those from last year. I am very interested in how they turn out.

[kendal]

overall shape, i like #1 for SVR, but swimming posture is hard to overlook. it appears to swim nose down in the video. this posture tends to end in nose standing and SBD. maybe just video, maybe looking for food. hard to say without more observation.

i think the tail is too high on #2 and this is what causes it to go nose up when it swims—at least in the video. but otherwise nice curve on back.

#3 has good if not perfectly straight swimming posture. like.

#4 has a flatter back and higher tails set. too much for SVR IMHO. don't like.

#5 would love to see this guy from above. fast swimmer too! you may have a calico TVR and all my envy.

all things considered i think i like #3 best, but given the choice i would take #5 for other reasons entirely as a TVR keeper and calico lover.

good work on getting the black to stick. hope it stays. best of luck!

PS. maybe it is just me, but on a side note, some of the pupils/eyes are looking small (inbreeding) and #3 looks very large eyed (possible runt). i am seeing both traits in some of the TVR i currently have. you might want to consider an unrelated outcross if you can find a good calico candidate.

[judge]

Thanks Kendal interesting Observations. Hold those thoughts my friend. I will show you later how these fish matured. See you at breeder social?

[bigbettadan]

Good points Kendal... Japanese ideals for ranchu aren't about "side view" or "top view". Its about an all view fish....... That can swim! And swim well.

Dan

[judge]

Good points Kendal... Japanese ideals for ranchu aren't about "side view" or "top view". Its about an all view fish....... That can swim! And swim well.

Dan

Hmmm... Are you saying that those fish can't swim?

I have yet to come across a tvr breeder who threw away a fish because it looks ugly side ways.

Similarly, i have seen many tvrs swim really awkward.

I have never seen any literature describing a tvr from the side.apart from finmood or raffles gold(which arent considered as literature.)

The emphasis is different thats because the ideal between you and me is different. I like to be able to enjoy my fish in the aqurium where they display full spectrum colors with cuteness factor weave into the visual.

So Dan why dont you come on over to the dark side? Things can be cuter and our indoor aquariums would look pleasantly pleasing to our Eyes. ;)

[Ichthius]

PS. maybe it is just me, but on a side note, some of the pupils/eyes are looking small (inbreeding) and #3 looks very large eyed (possible runt). i am seeing both traits in some of the TVR i currently have. you might want to consider an unrelated outcross if you can find a good calico candidate.

Remember that calico effects guanine including those in the eyes. #3 looks fine to me it just has reduced guanine making the pupil seem large.

Great fish Judge.

PS. Ascetically, over all I prefer fish number 1.

[bigbettadan]

I do have indoor aquariums.... my discus look great in them...LOL

I am just saying ranchus are a breed of movement, which means if the fish can't swim, theres a comformation problem in most cases. Even when I judge all goldfish breeds at AGA shows, the first thing I check is movement. And if its off, I look for issues that may be the cause. We want a fish to look good, but also be able to display properly. Again, it usually comes to balance. There is a reason why too high a tail set is a problem in ranchu.

Just my 2 cents. I love the work you are doing with calico ranchu. As John has said, its a extremely challenging thing you are doing.

Dan

[kendal]

Judge, hopefully i did not sound overly critical. i know you are a perfectionist seeking an ideal and that is why i went deep and picky. hopefully you understood that.

some fish swim nose up, some nose down, some change position such as #1 does when they move. the ideal is to be perfectly level at all times (rest and swimming). as Dan said if you observe the swimming you can often find a point or divergence form the standard/ideal balance such as a high tail creating drag and lift the none (bernoulli effect for the flyers) or short bodies dropping the head when at rest (swim bladder pushed too far back). these observations are critical in crosses as the breeder adds to a potential problem by matching it or corrects it by countering it. invevitably there will always be better and worse swimmers in all batches of fancies. with the color critical breeds, there is just one more ball to juggle.

good swimming i think is harder and maybe even more important in SVR. harder because the TVR longer body tends to level the fish easier than the SVR shorter and fatter body does as seen in #4 and #5. More important because the level posture is easier to see from the side through glass than from above.

[judge]

Judge, hopefully i did not sound overly critical. i know you are a perfectionist seeking an ideal and that is why i went deep and picky. hopefully you understood that.

some fish swim nose up, some nose down, some change position such as #1 does when they move. the ideal is to be perfectly level at all times (rest and swimming). as Dan said if you observe the swimming you can often find a point or divergence form the standard/ideal balance such as a high tail creating drag and lift the none (bernoulli effect for the flyers) or short bodies dropping the head when at rest (swim bladder pushed too far back). these observations are critical in crosses as the breeder adds to a potential problem by matching it or corrects it by countering it. invevitably there will always be better and worse swimmers in all batches of fancies. with the color critical breeds, there is just one more ball to juggle.

good swimming i think is harder and maybe even more important in SVR. harder because the TVR longer body tends to level the fish easier than the SVR shorter and fatter body does as seen in #4 and #5. More important because the level posture is easier to see from the side through glass than from above.

Kendal - Its all good. Those are very good constructive criticisms and I am glad you made them. Based on your posts, I have known that offending someone is not something that you would do and you like to analyse things in details. You can voice your opinion and I won't get offended.

The reason I did not even try to counter your opinions was because I just wanted to show them to you later when they are bigger and more comfortable.

Hope you don't take offense, but we can't judge a fish swimming posture when a fish is in jumpy state. Even Bristols will dart around or stay head down.

That's why I did not even try to counter or explain or gave reasons when you gave me your opinion. I was just going to show them to you later.

Here is how a well balanced fish look like (according to me of course hahaha...:D) :

- The fish should look relaxed when swimming and it would be a breeze. (just like you would not compare the speed of a Bristol swimming to your tvr, you should not compare the speed of TVR to that of SVR.) The main point is they should look at ease and relax just like you would do an evening stroll on the beach.
- The fish turn around like a helicopter rotating in mid air
- the fish should not go head down or up (acceptable even when up but swimming efforts have to be minimal) when completely stationary with minimal fin movement.
- The fish should stay afloat in one place when in stationary

You may have seen the videos of my F1s. Have you seen one fish that has balance problem?

If you ask me why I breed calico fish its because it is hard to find a well balanced fish with smooth back with great gental curvature, round fluffy fins and cute faces. All calicos are head down, ugly back, round wen and spiky fins. Hope you can see the difference in my fish from the others.

Short or long body the balance of the fish depends on the formation of front and back lobes of the swimbladder and placement of that swimbladder in the fish body (Observe a week old fry and you know what I mean.)

A fish with perfect placement of the bladder even for short body ones will swim better. I agree with you that its harder to get the perfect pivotal placement of the bladder when the fish body is too short. But its not at all impossible. The tail set comes in second to that. They can cancel each other out or mess each other up. :)

Hope you see my point of views and again my ideals are mine alone... the same applies to you and everyone else. ha ha ha...


Dan - Thanks for your complement. See you at the social and hope to see your fish. BTW the social is from 9/9/2011 to 9/11/2011. Correct?

Cheers

[TheTruth]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Which body type do you like best? If your favorite is not here and if you have pic or video of that fish, please feel free to list that fish here.

#1
Mkfh35S5Cq8
#2
F-Ac6Aa8LMM
#3
jmUDhcTZxlk
#4
fP9ZhpxGn-c
#5
0WGZjPWBxC4
interested but cant see pictures .take a look at mine and tell me what you think