Heavy Feeding VS SBD [Archive] - Site for Goldfish Keepers

32Bit_Fish

02-27-2009, 01:02 PM

What is the different you want to see? size? color change? As long as you don't feed them heavy. They won't go anywhere!

Fish get heavy feedings and they would get SBD problem regardless how much w/c u do, as long as they are in a tank.

That's my opinions.

small_ranchu

02-27-2009, 01:42 PM

Fish get heavy feedings and they would get SBD problem regardless how much w/c u do, as long as they are in a tank.

That's my opinions.

I don't think this is true. It is totally depend on how you define heavy feeding. You saw how many times I feed my fish.

32Bit_Fish

02-27-2009, 01:57 PM

It is totally depend on how you define heavy feeding.

I agree with this. Have you noticed fast growth with your 10 times feeding per day?

If you think so, then compare the growth rate with those fish in a pond at the goldfish farms.

so both term (heavy feeding and growth rate) is depond on how people define them.

If you try to heavy feeding your fish like the way those breeders do, I'm sure the fish would get SBD.

So I dont think my statement is completely wrong.

ak47_chicago

02-27-2009, 02:12 PM

Alright, Fred, They pick on you now. I thought i was the only got pick on...haha.

Fred, You should listen to us...and stop heavy feeding your fish.

okay? and be a good boy now.

Otherwise.......

small_ranchu

02-27-2009, 02:18 PM

IMO, when we conduct an experiment or do some comparison, we can only compare one parameter. We cannot mix everything.
So here is what I would do, please correct me if I am wrong.
Case 1.
"aquarium raise heavy feed":X1 VS "aquarium raise small feed":X2
Case 2
"pond raise heavy feed":Y1 VS "pond raise small feed":Y2

We cannot get an adequate result by comparing X1 vs Y1.

Sabine

02-27-2009, 03:17 PM

How much you can feed your fish will also depend on how warm the water is. Pond fish in China are probably kept at much higher temps than our fish in tanks, plus have the advantage of green water meaning 0 nitrates.
IMO, when we conduct an experiment or do some comparison, we can only compare one parameter. We cannot mix everything.

:exact:

32Bit_Fish

02-27-2009, 04:00 PM

Guys,

I wasn't picking on Fred, I was expressing my opinions based on my own experience. I hope you dont mind by my statement, Fred. :angel:

I would really interested to see someone who can pump their ranchus in a tank that resulting a rapid growth and without getting SBD.

Fred, I apologize if you feel I offended you in anyway. I won't do that to you since you gonna give me your 90G tank. :worship:

ak47_chicago

02-27-2009, 05:11 PM

small_ranchu

02-27-2009, 05:32 PM

Fred, I apologize if you feel I offended you in anyway. I won't do that to you since you gonna give me your 90G tank. :worship:
I don't mind. We just want to find out information. :)

brought on 8/29/2009 from Gunn at the goldfish show

How do you do that? J/K

ak47_chicago

02-27-2009, 05:36 PM

I don't mind. We just want to find out information. :)

How do you do that? J/K

Fred, I told you.

32Bit_Fish

02-27-2009, 05:37 PM

Hello, I did them without sbproblem. I remember I have about 16 baby goldfish in there. All of them without sbproblem after heavy feeedback for 3 to 6months.

brought on 8/29/2006 from Gunn at the goldfish show
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ak47_chicago/DSCN0837.jpg

3 or 4 month later.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ak47_chicago/DSCN1018.jpg

brought on 8/29/2009 from Gunn at the goldfish show

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ak47_chicago/DSCN0544.jpg

3 or 4 month later with heavy feeding

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ak47_chicago/DSCN0958.jpg

AK47,

Can you provide a little more detail of your heavy feeding? How much food per feeding in terms of minutes fish can finish their food.

I've tried to heavy feed my fish, however they were arleady 5" adult fish.

I feed them dry pellet (pro-gold) as much as they can finish within 5 mins.

I also do massive w/c 3 times a week ( I noticed the water temperature drop from 78F to 72F after a w/c, this could be a problem). I continue on with this feeding/waterchange routines for about a month, several of the fish started floating after each meal.

SBD has been a big challenge in my GF keeping. I guess there alot things I need to learn about this hobby.

ak47_chicago

02-27-2009, 05:50 PM

First tips for you.

Do not use progold anymore(sorry Rick).

32Bit_Fish

02-27-2009, 06:14 PM

First tips for you.

Do not use progold anymore(sorry Rick).

Yeah, I stopped using pro-gold.

Would Saki pellets ok?

Nice GFs in the pics BTW.

ak47_chicago

02-27-2009, 06:23 PM

2nd tips for you.

Hikari Lionhead. :)

And order from this online store too. 10% off with coupon code(coupon code is TEN) and free shipping if order $150

http://www.petmountain.com/product/goldfish-food/504757/hikari-lionhead-mini-pellets.html

32Bit_Fish

02-27-2009, 06:25 PM

What's ur 3rd tip? :confuse:

ak47_chicago

02-27-2009, 06:30 PM

Please contact Fred for more information.

bekko

02-28-2009, 07:01 AM

I believe there is a diet factor and a genetic factor at work with most swim bladder disorders. You can tell some fish will be prone to having swim bladder problems just by looking at them.

Many say there are water quality factors and/or a bacterial disease component too. I don't argue their point but suspect the combination of diet and genetics is more common.

-steve

suphi

02-28-2009, 11:39 AM

3rd tip is don't overfeed adult fish. Obese fish (like people) may look cute, but ain't healthy and are prone to various issues...unless your priority is to raise a monster fish instead of a healthy one.

Guenther

02-28-2009, 02:10 PM

Hi to all

Reading this thread I miss the definition of "heavy feeding"!
For me "heavy feeding" is when i feed 3% of body weight for young fish up to a half year, and 1% of body weight older than 1 year.
For this, you have to weigh your fish!

This amount depents on the food - I feed pellets with a ratio close to 3:1 protein:fat.
Pellets should not be fed alone add bloodworm, rice, shrimps, spinach...
Btw, this is one of my fish that were fed this way in 4 month to a lenght up to 9cm in a 45 gallon tank:

http://www.shubunkin.de/fantail/images/101206.jpg

bigbettadan

02-28-2009, 06:49 PM

And that's why I prefer the japanese ranchu(TVR) to the chinese version. The more you genetically shorten the body, the more SB problems genetically......
Dan

bekko

03-01-2009, 06:51 AM

This is the shape I like in a SVR. A little longer than most, but ranchu with this shape are as tough as nails, grow quickly and do not develop swim bladder issues.

-steve

wide photo, click to see it (http://www.raingarden.us/1667b.JPG)

Daryl

03-01-2009, 02:04 PM

In defense of some of the processed food pellets - they are actually very well balanced diets - and excellent nutrition for the fish. I do not like them in the form they are in - dry pellets or flakes - but I definately like the nutrition.

I blanch my veggies for gel food and toss in a handful of processed food pellets - ProGold, Aquadine, etc. - so that they are ground up in the food processer with the rest of the mix. They do not seem to have the same effect on the fish when in gel as they do when in dry pellet form.

I, too, have had a lot more success with the Hikari sinking Lionhead food - straight. I usually toss it into gel, too, though.

Virginia ranchu

03-01-2009, 03:04 PM

I find that only some of my fish are prone to floating when they eat a lot. I don't think this actually involves the swim bladder...I think they just get constipated and "gassy":)

I can feed the same fish a large amount of gel food or blood worms with no floating issues at all, but pellets will make them float. It is the short-bodied types that are most affected.

32Bit_Fish

03-01-2009, 07:45 PM

Couple of my fish have pretty severe SBD, they would float after a meal of frozen blood worm/ green peas.

Cincy Ranchu

03-01-2009, 08:56 PM

>1.5mm pellet size and floating pellets promote SBE ( effect), it would be interesting for people would have SBD issues to see if they are have nitrates in the water and the cause of the SBE is denitrification in the gut ( NO3 > N2 gas)

Also agree with RoB SBE is most often related to short bodied breeds.

I have completely eliminated this issue in my system by going away from pellets that float or are above 1.5mm, BTW the new Saki Ranchu food is extremely tiny 0.6 mm X 1.5mm.

:yess::exact:

THX GH

32Bit_Fish

03-04-2009, 03:10 PM

Dont' you guys think the short body ranchus look better than the long body ones?

I know this is a personal preference, I like short body ones. They look cute, like a puppy in the water.

So in order to avoid SBD fish in my tank, I should start keeping long body ones from now on? :youtellme:

bekko

03-04-2009, 06:17 PM

You could keep commons/hibuna if you want your goldfish to live forever. Or, maybe they just seem to last forever. The long-body ranchu are much stronger, but if they do not please you then they are of little use.

-steve

bigbettadan

03-04-2009, 06:21 PM

Not if they are good TVR...... The have thick, sumo like appearance, but strong. That does not mean skinny. Take a look at some good TVR pics on our picture section, very muscular.....

Dan

32Bit_Fish

03-04-2009, 07:06 PM

Not if they are good TVR...... The have thick, sumo like appearance, but strong. That does not mean skinny. Take a look at some good TVR pics on our picture section, very muscular.....

Dan

I think we are talking about SVR?

bigbettadan

03-04-2009, 07:45 PM

I am not am big SVR person. I like the short round body, but on Ryukins, who can handle it better due to finnage. I think it is cute, but is is such a struggle to swim properly.... I think a fish should be able to swim.

Dan

Daryl

03-05-2009, 01:30 PM

I don't know.... I kind of view the SVR and the TVR as two different entities - like apples and oranges. YOu cannot directly compare them. They are NOT the same breed - and do not/should not have to have the same look at all.

I REALLY appreciate the block of a good TVR - nice and muscular.....a powerhouse in the water. They are amazing, cool fish.

A good SVR should be rounder, short-bodied ... a little "moon in the water".... I like that. If they carry good genetics and are raised properly, they do not have to have ANY deportment issues - are solid in the water, too.

I do not want to see the two smashed together into one type of fish - a breed that is "less than" each, separately, were capable of being. I do not want a "pretty good" TVR with SVR features, or a "pertty good" SVR with TVR features.

bigbettadan

03-05-2009, 03:46 PM

Actually I agree with you. Thats why I would prefer a different name for the SVR........ Obviously the Japanese ranchu is the TVR, and is the true "ranchu"..... The chinese added the curved back to the lionhead and shorten the body even more, so they too could sell "ranchu". But I prefer lionchu to avoid confusion. The big curve ball is now Thai breeders are breeding Japanese lines toward a SV fish, like what Paul recently imported. But from the side, they still have a longer body, and TVR headgrowth. The tail set has just been changed... I wish we had some common terminology we could all agree on. The sadest thing for me is the loss of the straight back lionhead, which I think could handle the shorter body and still swim strong. JMO
Dan

Daryl

03-05-2009, 08:26 PM

I, too, LOVE the straighter backed Lionhead... the true Chinese Lionhead. I am very sad to see soooooo many Lionchu everywhere you look. They are NOT Lionhead, are NOT TVR, nor are they SVR...... I, personally, do not have much use for them.

bigbettadan

03-05-2009, 08:45 PM

The good news is a breeder could take those and breed back to the straight back....... They would be in demand!

Dan

Veil Gal

03-05-2009, 10:50 PM

Now this could be a great breeding project for those that are inclined.....:me:

jinyu_fan

03-06-2009, 01:16 AM

I too prefer the straigh back lionhead and a couple weeks ago found a little one in the LFS.

bekko

03-06-2009, 10:51 AM

SVR and lionhead are more closely related than SVR and TVR. Japanese TVR diverged and were isolated from Chinese lionhead/ranchu before the Chinese started making a distinction between lionhead and SVR. You find fish with the straight back in every batch of SVR offspring.

Joe Smartt says that lionhead and SVR are the same variety because you get both from the same parents. I think that is taking the matter a little too far. After all, goldfish are named and segregated into variety based on what they look like, not who there parents are.

The Chinese are doing a nice job of diverging the SVR and lionhead. They certainly do not breed true, but then, what variety does.

The name 'lionchu' was originally coined as a derogatory description of a lionhead with good head growth, but the back and tail tuck of a SVR. Then they caught on, lionchu became fashionable, and the term is no longer derogatory in most circles.

I sort of like the straight back of a lionhead too. However, I do not like the narrow caudal peduncle and would prefer lionhead with the straight back but a more imposing frame. Getting a thicker back and peduncle on a straight back sounded like an interesting breeding project. But, sometimes I wonder if the straight back and narrow, whimpy peduncle are not somehow linked and inseparable. Only time will tell.

-steve

-steve