Quality VS Time Frame

[small_ranchu]

Hi all,
Does the shape of the fish change when they grow old? My concern is if I buy a small good quality fish, are they going to end up as big but lower quality fish? Example, the back curve of one of my ranchu is smooth when it was young but it is not as smooth as before. :confuse1:

[Jed]

My question to you is...how small was the fish when you purchased it? I'm not an expert on this, but I would think the only changes would be weight, headgrowth and color. Do you have a before and after picture of this fish? :confuse1: too.

[small_ranchu]

two years before (4.5")
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l68/smallranchu/ranchu/IMG_4278.jpg


Now the back is not as smooth as before(I will take pic soon)

[Ichthius]

Fish change through out their life. This is why the Japanese have 3 distinct age/size classes for Ranchu. An ugly duckling can become a beautiful swan and a fish that wins as a TOSAI (1st year) rarely wins as a Oya (3rd+ year) fish.

Some is genetics some is husbandry some is who knows what.

I think most of our problems come with over feeding and to fast of growth. I've read accounts where they won't feed their baby ranchu in the morning if the belly is wider than the head...

[small_ranchu]

What is a good husbandry method will be? We only have control over it, right? :)


Fish change through out their life. This is why the Japanese have 3 distinct age/size classes for Ranchu. An ugly duckling can become a beautiful swan and a fish that wins as a TOSAI (1st year) rarely wins as a Oya (3rd+ year) fish.

Some is genetics some is husbandry some is who knows what.

I think most of our problems come with over feeding and to fast of growth. I've read accounts where they won't feed their baby ranchu in the morning if the belly is wider than the head...

[goldrush]

Halo Fred

Many a time we see fish deteriorate under our care after a period of keeping.Apart from weak genes,water is undoubtedly and arguably the most important influence.I noticed in the West,many like to keep fishes in well furnished tanks.Being hardy,goldfish thrive in such unnatural environment but they do not strive well in it.I got to go for now.I will continue with this discussion later.Bye

[bekko]

Minor faults become magnified with age. It's a basic tenet of goldfish keeping. A slightly drooping fin becomes severely drooping. A small lump on the back becomes a big lump. A slightly asymmetrical eye becomes very asymmetrical. Often it is pre-programmed by the genes.

It is easy to ruin a good fish with poor husbandry. But even the best of husbandry cannot prevent some fish from deteriorating with age.

It is rare for a very good small fish to remain very good as it grows. It is almost unheard of for a poor small fish to become a good large fish. That's why large high-quality goldfish are so valuable.

-steve

[small_ranchu]

I think most of our problems come with over feeding and to fast of growth. I've read accounts where they won't feed their baby ranchu in the morning if the belly is wider than the head...
Yeah I have heard about it as well. If I remember it correctly, it is the practice for TVR. We cannot adopt this rule in other fish though. For example in Ryukin, head will be very small compare to the other fishes. Is there any good method for individual line?

[small_ranchu]

Halo Fred

Many a time we see fish deteriorate under our care after a period of keeping.Apart from weak genes,water is undoubtedly and arguably the most important influence.I noticed in the West,many like to keep fishes in well furnished tanks.Being hardy,goldfish thrive in such unnatural environment but they do not strive well in it.I got to go for now.I will continue with this discussion later.Bye
Hi Doc,
Thanks for stop by. We are waiting for your input. :)

[small_ranchu]

Minor faults become magnified with age. It's a basic tenet of goldfish keeping. A slightly drooping fin becomes severely drooping. A small lump on the back becomes a big lump. A slightly asymmetrical eye becomes very asymmetrical. Often it is pre-programmed by the genes.

It is easy to ruin a good fish with poor husbandry. But even the best of husbandry cannot prevent some fish from deteriorating with age.

It is rare for a very good small fish to remain very good as it grows. It is almost unheard of for a poor small fish to become a good large fish. That's why large high-quality goldfish are so valuable.

-steve

Steve,
I agree with you. It is very difficult(or almost not existing) to make a poor small into good large one. But Goldrush is very good in doing that though. :worship:

[goldrush]

hahaha don't flatter me too much:-*I can only work within certain limits and not all fish will turn out the way I like them to be.
One thing I notice is that Westerners rely too much on filtration which to me is a double edge sword.......a case of good servant as well as bad master:youtellme:Too many literature have purported the use of filtration which advocate the proliferation of beneficial bacteria as a mean to clear turbid water system as well as convert nitrogeneous waste to less harmful residues.There is a definite truth in this.BUT the filters act as a haven for other harmful bacteria and parasites which colonise in intricate system called BIOFILMS which are perpetually self sufficient and very resistant to external elimination .Goldfish produces exceptional amount of waste and filters get clogged fairly easily to achieve conducive environment for pathogenicity and parasite proliferation.That is while we do not advocate filters in our setup.Green water is nature's best unlimited filtration system and that is while goldfish thrive so well in it and achieve their best potential in it.Though I do not use green water in my system,i do complete water change every 4 days without any filter to achieve good water condition.The problem here is the keeping may no longer be ornamental as the tank is barren and sparse in look.So there can never be the best of both worlds.You can ogle at my fish after some months later but these are never kept in any beautifully landscaped dislpay tank that sits as a showpiece in a cosy living room.


doc

[small_ranchu]

Though I do not use green water in my system,i do complete water change every 4 days without any filter to achieve good water condition.

I am pretty sure you have to provide sufficient space for fish. How much water do you provide for individual fish?


The problem here is the keeping may no longer be ornamental as the tank is barren and sparse in look.So there can never be the best of both worlds.You can ogle at my fish after some months later but these are never kept in any beautifully landscaped dislpay tank that sits as a showpiece in a cosy living room.

I can live with that. I am not keeping fish for ornamental purpose. I want to give the best for my fish and expect the best return from them as well. :exact:

[small_ranchu]

I can only work within certain limits and not all fish will turn out the way I like them to be.

I wish you can post some pics of your progress for those who haven't seen your masterpieces.

[Jed]

hahaha don't flatter me too much:-*I can only work within certain limits and not all fish will turn out the way I like them to be.
One thing I notice is that Westerners rely too much on filtration which to me is a double edge sword.......a case of good servant as well as bad master:youtellme:Too many literature have purported the use of filtration which advocate the proliferation of beneficial bacteria as a mean to clear turbid water system as well as convert nitrogeneous waste to less harmful residues.There is a definite truth in this.BUT the filters act as a haven for other harmful bacteria and parasites which colonise in intricate system called BIOFILMS which are perpetually self sufficient and very resistant to external elimination .Goldfish produces exceptional amount of waste and filters get clogged fairly easily to achieve conducive environment for pathogenicity and parasite proliferation.That is while we do not advocate filters in our setup.Green water is nature's best unlimited filtration system and that is while goldfish thrive so well in it and achieve their best potential in it.Though I do not use green water in my system,i do complete water change every 4 days without any filter to achieve good water condition.The problem here is the keeping may no longer be ornamental as the tank is barren and sparse in look.So there can never be the best of both worlds.You can ogle at my fish after some months later but these are never kept in any beautifully landscaped dislpay tank that sits as a showpiece in a cosy living room.


doc

This is interesting. Since you do not use any filtration systems, how large are your water changes every 4 days?

[suphi]

I agree with Goldrush on this one. Frequent water change is the best thing for goldfish. Relying on high-tech filtration system too much can definitely get you into trouble.

A lot of people I know (in the US) are putting too much emphasis on ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels, but there's much more than that when it comes to water quality (potential pathogens in the water plus other harmful chemicals--including some (that cannot be tested for) that may be secreted or excreted by the fish itself should always be considered, and these can be minimized by providing fresh clean water on a regular basis).

From my past experiences of indoor goldfish keeping, my fish would get into trouble whenever I lagged behind in water change and cleaning. They almost never get sick if I can keep up with the above.

I'm lucky to be living in the suburbs. We have well water which is pretty safe to the fish straight from the tap.