View Full Version : White lump on lip and white spots on tail
Ok can anyone tell me what this is? I have 2 possibly 3 fish with this problem. All eat well, tank is 55 gallons and only 3 4-5 inch ranchu. They were moved from the main tank after noticing the lumps. This has been ongoing for quite a while. At first I did a wait and see approach when only one fish had symptoms. I have tried salt .3,PP bath,tetracycline,and triple sulfa. So hopefully someone can ID this for me. Thanks in advance
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn315/Ajno17/March292009042.jpg?t=1238362163
and the tail pics are hard to get clear ones
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn315/Ajno17/March292009005.jpg?t=1238362030
Sabine
03-30-2009, 12:57 AM
I'm pretty sure those are Myxobolus nodules. The location in the caudal fin is also typical. Got the same photos from years back when a few of my goldies had them (sucked them also from their gills and identified them under the microscope, which my vet later confirmed).
http://www.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de/~dc20/pictures/Abb_08.jpg
afnaveils
03-30-2009, 01:10 AM
Nodular diseases
Caused by: various parasites, such as Ichthyosporidium, Nosema, Myxobolus, and Henneguya, and the fungus Dermocystidium.
Symptoms: Smooth yellowish-white cysts on the body, fins, gills, internal organs, or in muscle. They can vary in size from a few mm to a centimeter across, and can be spherical, oval, or irregular in shape. Each cyst contains thousands of parasitic spores.
Occurrences: These parasites do little harm, unless heavily infested in the gills or on smaller fish.
Treatment/Control: unfortunately, there is no reliable treatment for this type of disease.
Sabine
03-30-2009, 01:35 AM
I managed to get these from my fish (a ranchu had them on his wen, a bubbleeye in his gills, and a fantail in her caudal fin). I used a dropper to suck up a cyst: http://www.personainternet.com/sabine/temp/2005_0523Gorby0010.jpg
My ranchu looked like dusted with powdered sugar at one point when the disease was at its worst.
Thanks for the ID guys. I guess keep them away from the others is my best bet then.
Sabine
03-30-2009, 02:37 AM
I think it helped somewhat that I tried to keep the tanks as clean as possible (no gravel), and I installed a UV unit. The spores are resistant to anything you want to throw at them, freezing, boiling, and drying them up for 30 years + won't kill the spores. Neither will bleach or vinegar...
Only when the spores break open to release the buggers those can be killed by UV.
That means that pretty much all of my fish have been exposed except for the new one from Paul. So I am assuming not all of them will show symptoms. The ones showing symptoms were isolated. I'll look into a UV.
I think it helped somewhat that I tried to keep the tanks as clean as possible (no gravel), and I installed a UV unit. The spores are resistant to anything you want to throw at them, freezing, boiling, and drying them up for 30 years + won't kill the spores. Neither will bleach or vinegar...
Only when the spores break open to release the buggers those can be killed by UV.
So I shouldn't reuse the tank they are in? If I add a uv would it keep anyone else from getting this?
Sabine
03-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Honestly, I can't tell you. Reading on the web, it is often suggested to kill all fish and start new. Something I didn't want to even consider. After all, there is no guarantee that the next fish you buy doesn't have them again. My affected fish were all lfs and Walmart buys.
Aside from the UV (that I used for maybe 2 years, but the fish were without UV outside in the summer, and the tanks ran without fish in the meantime), I decided to ignore the problem until a fish took a turn for the worse which usually meant dropsy. I never cut a fish open to check for internal cysts, I should have but just couldn't.
The 3 ranchu offspring I still have seem to be free of myxos.
I believe that this parasite is widespread, just not often diagnosed. You've got a sharp eye, and obviously take a very close look at your fish. You may want to check the gills too for cysts.
You've got a sharp eye, and obviously take a very close look at your fish. You may want to check the gills too for cysts.
Haha this has been going on a lot longer than I want to admit. The first fish had these and she died almost 2 years ago. No one else showed symptoms until 4-5 months ago. The first fish acted healthy eating,spawning, everything. Just one day I found her dead in the tank. No warning. So fast forward 1+ years and now two are showing lumps. Eat act fine. I have a possibly 3rd one. This one's a calico so its really hard to see the spots on the tail but I think I see some. I'd hate to kill all of them except for the newbie whose qt'ed, we are talking a lot of money. Crap I was going to ugrade to a 180 but now I'm not sure, since everyone's been exposed. Gives me a damn headache.
Sabine
03-30-2009, 10:25 PM
I know the feeling. I lost quite a few fish, definitely all of those I had found the myxos on (and then some). They became lethargic, stood in the corner, developed dropsy...
One source of infection is tubifex. I never fed it though.
I would keep fish that show the spores separate from the hopefully healthy ones.
I hope I got rid of them for good!
I didn't do tubifex either. I have one thats affected thats been standing on her head on occasion. Maybe I'll need to help her along. What did you do to sanitize your tanks then? I am looking for a UV for the big tank, but will keep fish showing signs in the 55 gallon. The first fish affected was on of my first ranchu so I know where it came from.
Sabine
03-31-2009, 12:19 AM
I didn't sanitize - there is supposedly nothing that can do it.
I just removed the gravel, changed the filter sponges while the fish were outdoors anyway, and got the UV. As long as the fish are shedding the spores there's no point in sanitizing anyway.
When a nodule breaks open you see a tiny red hole where the nodule has been - the spores have been released then. That's when the UV can get the spores. The fish do show signs of distress then, flashing...
I've never seen them shed anything.
mikroll
03-31-2009, 10:52 AM
I managed to get these from my fish (a ranchu had them on his wen, a bubbleeye in his gills, and a fantail in her caudal fin). I used a dropper to suck up a cyst: http://www.personainternet.com/sabine/temp/2005_0523Gorby0010.jpg
My ranchu looked like dusted with powdered sugar at one point when the disease was at its worst.
Sabine , what mag x is the microscope photo?
Sabine
03-31-2009, 02:03 PM
Ajno, it can take months before they break open. Years. Decades spent in the soil.... Protected by the nodules, the spores can survive pretty much anything.
I have seen the open holes only in one of my fish, a ranchu, who got tiny pinpoint holes in his wen, and after that he looked like coated with powdered sugar: http://www.personainternet.com/sabine/temp/Gorby.JPG
Mike, the resolution must have been 10x.
Jeez one of my other ranchus looked like Gorby a few months ago. I still have the three who are showing signs. I have really been contemplating euthanizing the 55 with the three who have spores and getting rid of that tank. I am still observing the 125. One ranchu had sores on her wen for a little while and I'm not sure if its related...
Thought I'd give an update. I euthanized the 3 that were showing symptoms in the 55 and got rid of the tank. My fish in the 125 are showing symptoms which totally sucks you know what so I am waiting. When they show signs of distress I will euthanize then get rid of the tank and start over. I wanted to get another tank while I have this one but am concerned with spreading it to a new tank. So I'll wait till I get rid of this tank. I will be installing a uv on all of my tanks for now on......
Sabine
07-21-2009, 01:47 AM
Sorry Ajno, I can just imagine how you must feel.
That's a real bummer, Ajno. I was hoping to see more pictures.
Yeah it does. I was looking over the oranda in there. He's been sitting in the corner for a few days and today he's pineconing. I'll euthanize him later today once I get the canopy off the tank. I'll be down to 4 fish.
Sabine, is there a way to prevent cross contamination if I wanted to set up another tank other than a uv? Is washing my hands going to be enough?
Is Myxobolus nodules the same as whirling disease? Thats what keeps coming up when I google to get some information about it.
I love multiple posting. I kinda think the warmer weather makes the nodules more "active". I euthanized the oranda that dropsied and not a matter of if but when I am euthanizing the rest. It's going to take a while to get a new tank,equipment, and stock.
Not sure if I asked before Sabine, but did you buy new tanks and equipment?
Sabine
07-22-2009, 02:41 PM
There are many varieties of myxosporidiae, whirling disease in trout is a disease caused by one of them - because it causes so much damage in fishfarming it seems to be of high interest to scientists searching for a cure.
There is also a disease in honeybees that is being treated with Fumagillin, as far as I know. It is a very expensive drug, and not freely available. I gave up the search for it. I had some correspondence with a Hungarian scientist who worked on Fumagillin use in aquaculture, if you google for his name - Molnar - and Fumagillin you'll find it. He wrote to me that this drug can prevent the disease in fish, but it can't cure those who have it.
I did not get rid of my equipment, just bought a UV. At least I haven't seen any white spots anymore since then.
Washing your hands will help to physically remove spores from your hands. But unlike with other bugs, bacteria... it won't kill spores. Apparently nothing can.
How much time has elapsed? I'm almost tempted to do the same. Euthanize,bleach everthing and add a uv. If I get rid of the tank and filters is it going to be ok to keep the stand? I know sounds funny but I have gotten water inside it, would wonder if some of the spores could hang out on it and end up re infecting the tank and new occupants.
Sabine
07-23-2009, 12:20 AM
I think I used the uv for 2 years, and I haven't used it in the past 2 years I think. Like I said, I wouldn't get rid of the tank or filters, maybe the media - just let the uv run, it should kill the emerging myxos when the spores break open (you'll see the tiny red holes then that the myxos leave behind).
There is really no point in getting rid of everything - the next fish you buy may already infect everything again. I believe this stuff is not rare, unfortunately.
Have you ever checked one of the nodules under the microscope?
Nope no microscope. Might be my next purchase after a uv. I'd like to be able to breed fish again and doubt that will happen with my current situation.Or even show fish at a show next year. I doubt I could right now with how my fish are. It really sucks because I've spent easily a grand on just fish. I don't want there to be a chance of having this come up again. So euthanizing current fish,tossing out all the media, and bleaching the shit out of everything then starting a new cycle and adding a uv could be my best chance then? I've been looking to upgrade to a 150-180 and going the wet/dry or sump route so maybe now is the best time to do this.
Do I need to toss the bio media or could I bleach that? I do plan on getting new foam pads for all the filters.
So you would just get the uv and keep the fish? I am worried at infecting new fish. I am going to get the biggest uv 12x36 turbo twist. The gph flow for parasites on this one is 296. Sorry for all the questions.
Sabine
07-24-2009, 01:50 AM
Ajno, I don't have all those answers. I can only say what worked for me - it means though that I lost all but one of my original fish - but it seems that the fish I bought later (and who were exposed to the original contaminated fish) and their offspring seem to be clean of myxobolus.
I couldn't really find any useful info on the net relating to myxobolus in goldfish.
Thanks, I guess I haven't been that lucky because it seems anyone whose been exposed has displayed the telltale nodules on the tail. I am probably going to euthanise,clean everything,and add a uv. I'm working up the courage anyway...
bekko
07-24-2009, 06:35 AM
Do I need to toss the bio media or could I bleach that? 200 ppm chlorine for ten minutes should disinfect it. Clorox is 6% chlorine so that would be a half cup Clorox per ten gallons of water.
-steve
200 ppm chlorine for ten minutes should disinfect it. Clorox is 6% chlorine so that would be a half cup Clorox per ten gallons of water.
-steve
Thanks, will do. Do you agree I should euthanize and start over?
bekko
07-24-2009, 09:14 PM
It's hard to say because we do not completely understand those cysts, their life cycle, or the vectors involved. Apparently, there are different organisms which can cause it. There may have to be a secondary host in order for the thing to infect another fish. So, we can not guesstimate the probability that a new fish will become infected.
I would be inclined to get rid of fish which have the cysts and try the UV.
-steve
bekko
07-25-2009, 05:50 AM
I should have said "intermediate" host, not "secondary". Some of those things require a worm host. Fish to worm to fish. However, we do not know what kind of worm it is, whether or not any annelid will do, and whether or not it is possible for that sort of worm to live in the filter, gravel, or whatever.
I also meant to say that I would euthanize a fish with cysts but am not necessarily suggesting you do so. It is risk management and everyone has a different amount of risk aversion and everyone has to consider what they have to loose in the worst-case scenario.
Like Sabine implies, the UV seems to work.
-steve
I didn't euthanize and start over. I bought a uv a few months ago. I just lost my little r/w female this morning. She was the youngest so I was suprised to lose her. I am down to 3 ranchu now in a 125 gallon tank. I'm going to wait and see. When they are all gone, I'm probably going to take a break and look into getting a bigger tank and replace everything except for the uv. Wish I had better news but the other three seem to do doing well.
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