Downer fish

[Ajno]

I was wondering what people did when they get a fish shipped and it never recovers and is a bottom sitter or I like to call a downer. It seems like the swim bladder get damaged in some way. How many of you keep them and how many euthanize? I have one floater whose been like that for quite some time (at least 6 months) and a bottom sitter/head down one for 4 months. I have tried altering diets/fasting/treating and have had no success. I think this is how they are to be.

[demdamdemekins]

I got a calico ranchu from Ken once that came in as a head stander. Jed you might remember this fish, we were both bidding on it. I kept it separated, fed it soaked pellets and gel food for a few months but it never righted itself. I didn't want to kill it so long as its appetite was good, but after a while it became almost completely immoble, and would just bob at the surface. At that point, it's belly began to dry out, and I put it down. Interesting note, the fish was very short of body stature, which I believe Cincy said to watch out for. Maybe something to think about...

[small_ranchu]

I bought a r/w ranchu from Ken and found out that he is a head stander. I tried to tread him for one month and do not see any improvement. I gave it to somebody who is willing to take care of him.

[joe]

I have a lionhead that was originally placed in my 200 gallon. The tank is not really that tall only 24 inches high. However , she did not like it and would often sit on the bottom or get harrassed by the other fish. I believe it is a female. Anyway, I placed in her my twenty long gallon, and she is active as can be. I also keep a heater on at all times at 80 degress, and really watch her diet. She is now doing great now. I would try and place her back in my larger tank and the samething happens, once placed back in the twenty long, she recovers and does well again. I agree with Cincy that fish that are really short bodied or have extremely large wens seem to have this problem more often. My lionhead has really large wen.

[Jed]

I think we all have been in this type of situation. When this question is asked on some boards, I try to avoid it because it becomes so controversial. I am interested to read what everyone has to say about this.

[Cincy Ranchu]

Shipping is a giant stress on big fish. Boxes, no matter how youship go ina dn out of trucks and dropped off conveyors. New fish, especially imported ones, are internally bruised. As soon as we get these fish in our tanks we tend to treat with something and this in turn increases the stress even further.

First, a trick JoAnn Burke used to do was to put a piece of bubble wrap in the bottonm of the cooler. This helps cushion the blows!

Next, many imports have never been in aquarium and possibly never had pelleted food.

Think about how still you can get after falling off a ladder, a bike , or just too much yard work. So after much thought I feed new fish only frozen adult brine shrimp for a few days and I tend to not light the aquarium. Then I do a daily water change of 50% for several days to prevent ammonia stress.
I only medicate if I see panting or frayed fins, discoloration of fin rays, or flashing. Chemistries of choice are Oxilinic acid and Trichloracide.

Floaters are big issue, I have been experimenting with Jungle medicated food.

[Jed]

Cincy, you stated you have been experimenting with floaters, but when have you reached the point where it became "necessary to enthanize them?

[bekko]

Not all fish which bottom-sit have buoyancy problems.

But, a goldfish which shows signs of a buoyancy problem will always have a buoyancy problem. You may find some tricks which give temporary improvement, but the problem only gets worse with age. As mentioned, you can see it coming in a short body form. Goldfish with signs of the butthead deformity are also highly prone to buoyancy problems. Personally, I have little patience with them. They are unwanted in the gene pool and consume precious space/resources which could be put to better use.

-steve

[Jed]

Not all fish which bottom-sit have buoyancy problems.

But, a goldfish which shows signs of a buoyancy problem will always have a buoyancy problem. You may find some tricks which give temporary improvement, but the problem only gets worse with age. As mentioned, you can see it coming in a short body form. Goldfish with signs of the butthead deformity are also highly prone to buoyancy problems. Personally, I have little patience with them. They are unwanted in the gene pool and consume precious space/resources which could be put to better use.

-steve

Patience? This is what I've been waiting to hear. I have one show tank and I can tolerate a bottom sitter, but a fish with a serious bouyancy problem, I cannot. I've tried and it's not fair to the fish nor me. I will probably get blasted for making that comment, but that's how I feel.

[Ajno]

Not all fish which bottom-sit have buoyancy problems.

But, a goldfish which shows signs of a buoyancy problem will always have a buoyancy problem. You may find some tricks which give temporary improvement, but the problem only gets worse with age. As mentioned, you can see it coming in a short body form. Goldfish with signs of the butthead deformity are also highly prone to buoyancy problems. Personally, I have little patience with them. They are unwanted in the gene pool and consume precious space/resources which could be put to better use.

-steve

Exactly space is precious for me. Thats why I'm leaning toward euthanasia. I hate doing it but realistically I doubt these fish will improve. I feed gel/fresh fruits and veggies so I know that it isn't a diet issue. I do 2 large water changes a week and water params are always good. Yeah some people get pissed about euthanizing but look at a breeders standpoint. They don't have the room and their traits are very undesirable. I gave up breeding for a while because the culling process bothered me.

BTW whats the butthead deformity? My son calls me a butthead all the time so I wonder if I have that?:confuse:

No really what is it?

[sacheenman]

I think this comes down to a personal decision. In the purist sense of having show fish, these guys would be automatically euthanized. I try to wait for a decision-maker. If the fish develops sores from bottom sitting or exposure to air, then the quality of life is affected and it becomes a no brainer. Also if the fish is immobile for a long time I believe QoL is poor for the fish. If all treatment options have been performed, putting a fish down is inorder and while you may feel sad, you should not feel guilty about it.

Fred

[Ajno]

Yeah I euthanized the one that was stuck at the top all the time. I am waiting on my bottom sitter. I hate doing it but I haven't seen improvement in quite some time.

[cowiche ponder]

I have one similar to the above described. Came in a few weeks ago. The other 2 fish with it are fine and swimming normally. This Ryunkin swims, but is often upside down as much as right side up. Had one like that that lived for a year. I don't like a fish like that in my tank, but can't quite put it down because of it either.

Mary

[jinyu_fan]

I agree that when the quality of life is lost then the fish should be euthanized. I wonder if these defects in the fish is observed before the fish are sold. If the fish have these problems to begin with, then they should never have been sold. If the problem occurred early on, then the breeders should have culled these fish. All too often, fish that should be culled are not and this has a detrimental affect on the hobby. If new comers to the hobby are constantly dealing with sickly and defective fish, how can they know that there are beautiful goldfish out there and how can they even begin to appreciate the beauty and grace of these fish? Whew...my rant for the day!

[bekko]

I don't know how to describe a butthead. There are numerous characteristics but an important one is the very short distance between the eye and tip of nose. Once you've seen a few they are unmistakable. I'll get some photos if the opportunity arises and start a new thread.

Let's face it, goldfish is all about euthanasia. The fecundity and survival of the offspring is so high that no one could possibly keep more than a few percent without running out of space. Culling two-week old fry is guilt-free and almost socially acceptable. But, you cannot identify all the bad apples at two weeks and the selection must continue as they grow in order to give better fish the space they need for proper grooming.

I sympathize with those who cannot stand the thought of euthanizing a fish which is not sound. But, if you buy a goldfish you have, in essence, paid someone else to do the culling for you. I couldn't kill a cow, but I eat hamburgers anyway.

Good rant jinyu fan.

-steve

[joe]

I think it is a individual decision that we make based on a variety of factors. No one will blast you on this board Jed because we all know like the rest of us here, you do your very best with your goldfish. Sometimes these things just happen. For me, I will tolerate for as long as I feel the fish has some quality of life. I do not want the fish to suffer. And even though they do not feel pain like we do, I know that they suffer and are in pain in their own way.

[sweetshannon]

I think it is a individual decision that we make based on a variety of factors. No one will blast you on this board Jed because we all know like the rest of us here, you do your very best with your goldfish. Sometimes these things just happen. For me, I will tolerate for as long as I feel the fish has some quality of life. I do not want the fish to suffer. And even though they do not feel pain like we do, I know that they suffer and are in pain in their own way.


Very well said. I hate to put them down, but I have for upside down fish a few times. I try everything I can first, but at some point you have to do what you feel is right.

[Daryl]

When space is an issue, or the fish does not have any other "redeeming" features that makes it "valuable", unfortunately, it has to go.

I do like to give them as much time as possible. I have had fish that were floaters be reverted to sinkers. I have only had a few sinkers become "healthy", though. The ones that did usually seemed to be sinkers because of improper feeding. Once changed to gel food, exclusively - heavy on the greens - given sparingly, they did ok. This "cure" usually will occur in the first couple of months. After that, there is little hope in my opinion.

Floaters, however, are far easier - and I have had a fair success with them. The majority that I get in that are upside down seem to be that way because of a combination of high nitrates, poor feeding, temp issues, and often nitrite poisoning. Elimination of the problem water, adjustment of the food issues (live and gel work wonders) and TIME will often cure a floater.

The fish poisoned by nitrite and/or lousy food will always seem to be susceptible to high nitrates and poor food - a single slip up and the fish flips again. But they can be solid in the water, do well in shows, and breed if you wish.

[johnatoranchu]

"Floaters" and "sinkers"? It's really a no brainer. They only get worse. The only cure is immediate euthanasia, it works every time.
John

[cowiche ponder]

My fish is not really a floater or sinker.. its swims around the tank..just not always right side up..it is easily "bounced" by the currents. It can find food. It is a nice fish.

2ndary problem now is a small ulcer..treated once and if it heals ok..if not...ok it's gone.

Mary

[Ajno]

Thanks for the opinions. I always give it a try with gel food and clean water, but this particular fish swims funny so I doubt it will get better. Just bummed I paid decent amount of money for this guy.

[Daryl]

I am so sorry. I usually just chalk it up to the price of the hobby. 'T'aint cheap - but surely is FUN!

:(