Breeders/auctions and the bloodlines - Page 3

vicsveils · 03-17-2012, 02:56 PM

i have jannets fish from the start and added streamsons fish to cross over the years i have calicos but cant keep the blue what is the best line cross you found to keep the blue in ?

TheTruth · 03-17-2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicsveils

i have jannets fish from the start and added streamsons fish to cross over the years i have calicos but cant keep the blue what is the best line cross you found to keep the blue in ?

i have found that intense light algie,spinach,and good genes keep the blue.after 10yrs usually the blue fades anyway.i hope this helps

bigbettadan · 05-19-2012, 03:27 AM

I am starting to think, like bettas, we need to breed for spread and branching vs length. I think the Brits are doing it, be it maybe unintentionally.

Dan

Cincy Ranchu · 05-19-2012, 11:27 AM

Besides lacking blue, the Calico Philly needs black in its' tail. While this trait exists, it seems to be transient

It is also important to note that the English veils have moved towards a ryukin/fantail body type the Philly has a Oranda body base. I am concerned now that 15 people or so have the EV that they will cross to the PV and end up with a mutt. Strategy and care for the historical genetics are a serious concern.

afnaveils · 05-19-2012, 01:48 PM

I think the risk may come from the hobbyists who actually have the different varieties of veils. As I'm a "purist" I never actually did any cross or outcross of the veils. I mentioned it a few times to save my last UK metallic veil and also my last Philly but never did any outcross. Now, this particular Philly is 7-8 years old, it floats on one side and cannot swim straight anymore...

As mentioned before my intention is to cross the remaining metallic UK veil to a metallic from UK calico spawn. Then, the offsprings will still be pure English. Unless someone would swap some UK metallics with some UK calicos...

bigbettadan · 05-19-2012, 02:42 PM

I love red metallics, I hope you can work both.

I was just looking at pics in the latest gsgb bulletin, of Mills fish. The caudals had wide spread, but short. Frilled tail skriting, caused from ray branching. Interesting.

sc569 · 05-20-2012, 03:13 AM

Just a warning to people who have both Philly veils and UK veils.

I spawned a UK veil and a Chinese broadtail (tricolor metallic, imported). All of the progeny are forked tail, like standard ryukin.

So, it is most likely that there is more than one locus that produces the broadtail/veiltail phenotype.

bigbettadan · 05-20-2012, 03:23 AM

After studying my Uk veils, vs the Philly veils, the tail structure is different, as well as the body type. It reminds me of half-moon bettas(uk veil) vs veil tail bettas(Philly). Jmo
Dan

bluebelly · 05-21-2012, 12:10 AM

To BB Dan. The English veil was a Philly veil at one time. Since you are a trained judge I would like to hear from you what the English did or did not do to the fish or what we did. I know Thomma like a thin elongated veil. What do you see?

bigbettadan · 05-21-2012, 12:38 AM

They just selected for spread vs length. One of the biggest reason to do this, the fish will be able to handle it longer, ie deportment. And it just looks impressive. Very similar to the Bristol tail vs normal tail.

Dan

05-19-2012, 11:27 AM	#24
Cincy Ranchu Professional Breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Age: 62 Posts: 3,004 Blog Entries: 64 Thanks: 791 Thanked 908 Times in 638 Posts	Calico Philliey's Besides lacking blue, the Calico Philly needs black in its' tail. While this trait exists, it seems to be transient It is also important to note that the English veils have moved towards a ryukin/fantail body type the Philly has a Oranda body base. I am concerned now that 15 people or so have the EV that they will cross to the PV and end up with a mutt. Strategy and care for the historical genetics are a serious concern.

05-19-2012, 01:48 PM	#25
afnaveils Goldfish breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada Posts: 1,338 Thanks: 366 Thanked 281 Times in 196 Posts	I think the risk may come from the hobbyists who actually have the different varieties of veils. As I'm a "purist" I never actually did any cross or outcross of the veils. I mentioned it a few times to save my last UK metallic veil and also my last Philly but never did any outcross. Now, this particular Philly is 7-8 years old, it floats on one side and cannot swim straight anymore... As mentioned before my intention is to cross the remaining metallic UK veil to a metallic from UK calico spawn. Then, the offsprings will still be pure English. Unless someone would swap some UK metallics with some UK calicos... __________________ http://goldfishkeepers.com/forum/album.php?u=56 Gerard 2012 population: Ranchus, BEPs, Bristol shubunkins, UK Calico and Metallic veiltails and Broadtail Moors, Broadtail ryukins, Shukins, Red cap lionhead, Chinese calico and sakura ranchus, Veiltail & Butterfly Dragoneyes, Orandas, Celestials, Tosakins, Azumanishikis and Jikins Last edited by afnaveils; 05-19-2012 at 01:50 PM.

05-21-2012, 12:10 AM	#29
bluebelly Ambassador Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: chesterland,ohio,usa Posts: 1,023 Thanks: 10 Thanked 483 Times in 281 Posts	English vs Philly To BB Dan. The English veil was a Philly veil at one time. Since you are a trained judge I would like to hear from you what the English did or did not do to the fish or what we did. I know Thomma like a thin elongated veil. What do you see?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-17-2012, 02:56 PM	#21
vicsveils Member Group: Keeper Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: nj Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	i have jannets fish from the start and added streamsons fish to cross over the years i have calicos but cant keep the blue what is the best line cross you found to keep the blue in ?

05-19-2012, 03:27 AM	#23
bigbettadan Professional Breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Indy USA Posts: 3,171 Thanks: 142 Thanked 492 Times in 373 Posts	I am starting to think, like bettas, we need to breed for spread and branching vs length. I think the Brits are doing it, be it maybe unintentionally. Dan

05-19-2012, 02:42 PM	#26
bigbettadan Professional Breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Indy USA Posts: 3,171 Thanks: 142 Thanked 492 Times in 373 Posts	I love red metallics, I hope you can work both. I was just looking at pics in the latest gsgb bulletin, of Mills fish. The caudals had wide spread, but short. Frilled tail skriting, caused from ray branching. Interesting.

05-20-2012, 03:13 AM	#27
sc569 Professional Breeder Group: Keeper Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: New York Posts: 234 Thanks: 0 Thanked 55 Times in 30 Posts	Just a warning to people who have both Philly veils and UK veils. I spawned a UK veil and a Chinese broadtail (tricolor metallic, imported). All of the progeny are forked tail, like standard ryukin. So, it is most likely that there is more than one locus that produces the broadtail/veiltail phenotype.

05-20-2012, 03:23 AM	#28
bigbettadan Professional Breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Indy USA Posts: 3,171 Thanks: 142 Thanked 492 Times in 373 Posts	After studying my Uk veils, vs the Philly veils, the tail structure is different, as well as the body type. It reminds me of half-moon bettas(uk veil) vs veil tail bettas(Philly). Jmo Dan

05-21-2012, 12:38 AM	#30
bigbettadan Professional Breeder Group: Breeder Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Indy USA Posts: 3,171 Thanks: 142 Thanked 492 Times in 373 Posts	They just selected for spread vs length. One of the biggest reason to do this, the fish will be able to handle it longer, ie deportment. And it just looks impressive. Very similar to the Bristol tail vs normal tail. Dan