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Old 02-03-2012, 05:55 PM   #1
johnatoranchu
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Default Albino

Does anyone have any hands-on knowledge of breeding Albinos in either goldfish or tropical fish. I have recently acquired 5 examples; all are twin tailed goldfish, 4 have telescopic eyes, 1 is normal eyed, 4 are metallics with colour clearly diluted (creamy orange) and interestingly 1 is calico and its colour, largely orange, is as vivid as that of normal calicos. By Albino, I mean fish with blood red eyes, not fish with red rimmed eyes which are commonly seen in sarassa Ranchu and Orandas. Albinos/Lutinos are easy to reproduce in birds and mammals as albinoism is a sex-linked gene but as far as I have been able to ascertain albinoism in fish is not sex-linked so I am presuming that it is a simple recessive. I would truly appreciate any information you can give me. My fish were imported from Asia (interestingly those from Japan were 15 times more expensive than those from ? (possibly China)) but they are only an inch long so it will probably be at least six months before I can breed from them.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:40 PM   #2
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Default albinos

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Originally Posted by johnatoranchu View Post
Does anyone have any hands-on knowledge of breeding Albinos in either goldfish or tropical fish. I have recently acquired 5 examples; all are twin tailed goldfish, 4 have telescopic eyes, 1 is normal eyed, 4 are metallics with colour clearly diluted (creamy orange) and interestingly 1 is calico and its colour, largely orange, is as vivid as that of normal calicos. By Albino, I mean fish with blood red eyes, not fish with red rimmed eyes which are commonly seen in sarassa Ranchu and Orandas. Albinos/Lutinos are easy to reproduce in birds and mammals as albinoism is a sex-linked gene but as far as I have been able to ascertain albinoism in fish is not sex-linked so I am presuming that it is a simple recessive. I would truly appreciate any information you can give me. My fish were imported from Asia (interestingly those from Japan were 15 times more expensive than those from ? (possibly China)) but they are only an inch long so it will probably be at least six months before I can breed from them.
John
in the dark ages i used to breed calico ryukins and i would get a pink eyed matt fish but they were never hardy and usually went to the pet store.one time i got a bigger robust one .i put it by itself and grew it to a good size and it got some pale blue after some time.really pretty fish.i spawned it 3times and never got another pink eye.the babies were pale calicos and were not robust and i gave up.i hope this is helpful.
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johnatoranchu (02-03-2012)
Old 02-04-2012, 12:34 AM   #3
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Default albino

John, you might try Fish Dork by email, he developed albimos based on instructions from Thoma
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johnatoranchu (02-04-2012)
Old 02-04-2012, 07:30 PM   #4
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John, I have no experience with albino goldfish but I have bred an old strain of 'Vienna Emerald' swordtail guppies that have an albino substrain. The albino was simple recessive: albino x albino only produced albino and when crossed to non-albino threw only non-albino unless the normally colored parent was carrying the albino allele. I did not detect any sex-linkage. Of course with the more complicated genetics of goldfish, this may play out very differently.
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johnatoranchu (02-04-2012)
Old 02-04-2012, 10:56 PM   #5
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Many thanks Bruce. Your experience with guppys mirrors my own thoughts as to what will probably happen with Goldfish. I cannot find any reference anywhere to sex linked colour genes in any fish so in all probability even in goldfish it will prove to be a "simple" recessive gene. It will also be fun to see if i can produce albino normal eyed (that is not telescopic) single tails - quite a challenge!
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:37 AM   #6
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John,
Yamamoto (1973) and Kajishima (1977) talk about the inheritance of albinism in GF. "ppcc" is an albino. Smartt (2001) says that 1 out of 16 will be albino in the F2 generation of a "albino x normal cross". He then says "P-cc are transitory albinos". 3 Albinos will develop pigment later on, but the F2 ratio of an albino x normal will give 1/16 'true" albino. So just keep the ones that stay albino. You then know that they are homozygous recessive, and will spit all albinos upon breeding. Steve "bekko" from Hawaii has albino telescopes for sale, so he should be able to give you breeding advice.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:28 AM   #7
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Default albinos

. Smartt (2001) says that 1 out of 16 will be albino in the F2 generation of a "albino x normal cross". He then says "P-cc are transitory albinos". 3 Albinos will develop pigment later on, but the F2 ratio of an albino x normal will give 1/16 'true" albino.

John do you know where Dr. Joe got this information? Was this an experiment done by Dr. Joe or a fellow hobbyist or was it "ON PAPER" theory? I know Carlos and Al T. were both working with albinos and both wanted to cross to the blue belly gene. Don't know if this was ever done or how far they bred the albinos..
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johnatoranchu (02-05-2012)
Old 02-05-2012, 10:11 AM   #8
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On the obvious side, I guess that the 1/16 reapppearance of albino in the F2is a straight-forward mathematical result from the tetraploid status of goldfish - in only 1/16 cases will there be a double recessive (sorry if that's obvious).
Things can get complex too - in leopard geckos there are at least 3 types of albino; in each case a different part of the pathway for melanin production is affected. If you cross different types you get normal F1s. Then of course you get odd effects based upon incubation temperature too...
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johnatoranchu (02-05-2012)
Old 02-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkrhodesva View Post
John,
Yamamoto (1973) and Kajishima (1977) talk about the inheritance of albinism in GF. "ppcc" is an albino. Smartt (2001) says that 1 out of 16 will be albino in the F2 generation of a "albino x normal cross". He then says "P-cc are transitory albinos". 3 Albinos will develop pigment later on, but the F2 ratio of an albino x normal will give 1/16 'true" albino. So just keep the ones that stay albino. You then know that they are homozygous recessive, and will spit all albinos upon breeding. Steve "bekko" from Hawaii has albino telescopes for sale, so he should be able to give you breeding advice.
Bryan
Many thanks for your interesting post. I know Joe Smartt and unfortunately his assessment of outcomes is purely "academically" based which is why I am interested in hearing from anyone who has ACTUALLY DONE THE BREEDING. I don't know the basis of Yamamoto and Kajishima's research but it could be that Joe used their writings as reference. This is one of the major problems with goldfish genetics - finding people who have actually got their hands wet and recorded what they actually bred THEMSELVES.
John
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bluebelly View Post
. Smartt (2001) says that 1 out of 16 will be albino in the F2 generation of a "albino x normal cross". He then says "P-cc are transitory albinos". 3 Albinos will develop pigment later on, but the F2 ratio of an albino x normal will give 1/16 'true" albino.

John do you know where Dr. Joe got this information? Was this an experiment done by Dr. Joe or a fellow hobbyist or was it "ON PAPER" theory? I know Carlos and Al T. were both working with albinos and both wanted to cross to the blue belly gene. Don't know if this was ever done or how far they bred the albinos..
It was "on paper" Dave. Hopefully I can grow my specimens on, breed from them and record the results. I am not interested in "percentages" though - we both know how dangerous segregation by sight can be - but I am interested in the mode of inheritance. Yes, albino mock metallics/blurbellies are on my wish list of variants to produce.
John
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